Starcraft - Warcraft Unit Equivalents

[SarChasm]

Not so much a technical question, this one's just for fun.

Being a fan of Starcraft, I've decided to try and port the whole game into Warcraft.

I know, I know, this is already being done, but the problem I have with the current ones is the fact that they're trying to make an EXACT clone. I just want Starcraft gameplay on Warcraft engine.

So what I basically want to do is make Starcraft in Warcraft, without importing ANY custom models. EVERYTHING in the game will be made with currently existing resources. Besides, this'll help reduce the map size, which will decrease DL'ing time, and discourage people from leaving as soon as they enter the game on BNet.

Here's exactly what I need to do.
1. Find out which races should be which.
2. Find out which units should be which.

The rest of the thread will work like this: (STARCRAFT) = (WARCRAFT)

TERRAN = Human

SCV(M)(B)(H) = Peasant
Marine(B) = Rifleman
Firebat(B) = Footman
Ghost(B) = ?
Medic(B) = Priest
Vulture(M)(H) = Knight
Siege Tank(M) = Siege Engine
Wraith(M) = Dragon Hawk Rider
Dropship(M) = ?
Battle Cruiser(M) = ?
Science Vessel(M) = ?
Valkyrie(M) = Flying Machine/Gyropter​

PROTOSS = Undead

Zealot(B) = Ghoul
Dragoon(M) = Crypt Fiend
High Templar(B) = Necromancer
Dark Templar(B) = Queen of Pain
Probe(M)(H)(R) = Acolyte
Shuttle(M)(R) = Sky Barge
Reaver(M)(R) = Meat Wagon
Observer(M)(R) = Shade
Scout(M) = Gargoyle
Corsair(M) = Destroyer
Carrier(M) = Frost Wyrm (Interceptor = Vulture)
Arbiter = Obsidian Statue
Archon(H) = Banshee
Dark Archon(H) = Banshee (different tint)​

ZERG* = Night Elf

Larva = Sentry
Drone(H) =Wisp
Overlord = Sentry Owl
Zergling = Treat
Hydralisk = Huntress
Mutalisk = Hippogryph
Scourge = Storm Crow
Queen = Faerie Dragon
Lurker = ?
Defiler = Dryad
Ultralisk = Bear
Guardian = Chimera
Devourer = Green Dragon
Broodling = Treant
Infested Terran = Plague Treant​

*Every Zerg is considered biological
M - Mechanical
B - Biological
H - Hovering (not affected by Spider Mines)
R - Robotic (not affected by Spawn Broodling)
Any other known classifications or information on classifications (such as what targets Plague can affect) would be appreciated.

Obviously I haven't thought of much yet, and suggestions would be appreciated. Anything and everything I have so far is tentative, and subject to change. If someone could kindly inform me of how the rep system works, I'd be glad to dish that out for good suggestions too.

 

[Lumograph090]

There is already models in game for the Fire Bat, Marine, Hydralisk, and Zergling.

Fire Bat = Units\Critters\ChaosSpaceOrc\ChaosSpaceOrc

Marine = Units\Critters\Marine\Marine

Hydralisk = Units\Critters\Hydralisk\Hydralisk

Zergling = Units\Critters\zergling\zergling

 

[SarChasm]

Yeah but if I use those, they wouldn't fit with the rest of the units' theme.

Besides, Zergling and Hydralisk models don't have team color.

 

[denmax]

SCV's = peasant? Or a militia that can build or something
Wraith = Dragonhawk Rider (although it much fits with the Protoss' anti-air)
Valkyrie = Flying Machine / Grycopter (they're the same, just different names in TFT and ROC)

 

[SarChasm]

Thanks. I should probably add some classification stats such as biological and mechanical. Those would be important to keep in mind.

 

[Igor_Z]

Zealot

Ultralisk = units\creeps\SpiderBlack\SpiderBlack.mdl
Defiler(i think this was something like a scorpion) = Units\Creeps\Archnathid\Archnathid.mdl

If u want to import models: Try searching on the hive
Protoss Search

 

[SarChasm]

Thanks for the suggestions, but you missed the point entirely. I don't want anything to have to be imported, so I'm NOT looking for ANY custom models at all whatsoever.

 

[Azlier]

Marine = Rifleman? No no no, Marine is Footman. Rifleman would be Firebat. Knight would be... don't know. Terrans didn't have easily defined tiers like the Zerg.

 

[SarChasm]

The Marine is a ranged unit, so it would make sense to have Rifleman be Marine. Knight could probably be a lance chucking version of the Vulture.

 

[Azlier]

No, marines are footmen because footmen have no requirement to build. They are the first available unit, can be upgraded to have an ability, and are relatively cheap. They're your standard tier 1 unit that you use to rush.

 

[chovynz]

Personally, I think you're wasting time in attempting to make this map, with the restrictions you have placed upon yourself.

Warcraft does not equal Starcraft.
It's made on a different engine, with different capabilities, with different gameplay in mind.

I've seen other maps like this and played them as well. Maps like, Command & Conquer (WC3 style {no imports} ), Starcraft (pretty much the same idea that you've talked about here), and a few other "games" with massive armies. Most of them have been disappointing. I cannot think of one map that I enjoyed enough to play a second time. In fact, after I formatted my harddrive I never went into another "Starcraft-named-Warcraft" custom game again (except Zone), based on my horrible experiences in BNet.

Context: I love TD's, Starcraft Zone (wc3 map), Zombie maps, Card Shuffle, survival maps (one hero or one team against crazy odds),interesting maps, or maps that make you think; and outside of WC3, I have all the Dune games, most Command and Conquer games, a few mass army games, many Starwars. I've played Starcraft but dont own it.

I'll explain why I think you're wasting time.

Reason #1: Familiarity vs Expectations - When I play a map and I see Warcraft units, I expect them to act like Warcraft units - unless specified. When I see a map that is named "Starcraft Zone/Guard/Death/Team/etc..." I expect to see units that are from Starcraft. I dont expect to see Warcraft units, acting like and named after units from the Starcraft universe. To see a Warcraft unit, lets say a peon (or more appropriately Robot Goblin) named "SCV" is borderline ok. But you will very quickly run out of units that "fit" the conversion (with the no imports rule.) Then you start running into things like, perhaps the WardEyeball or a projectile-model unit of some sorts acting like and named the "Probe". Which IMHO looks ridiculous.

Reason #2: Workload vs Expectations
If you are going to the lengths that it sounds like you want to, but you restrict yourself to no imports, you run the risk of the map looking and feeling unfinished, unpolished and awkward. Are you going to change movement speed of all units to match SC? Make them to scale? How CLONELIKE are you going? Because if you do everything except the models or sizing, or movement speed, then it seems to lack, or be missing a vital part of what makes a Starcraft map good. "The Look and Feel" of Starcraft.

Let's take a closer look at what I mean here. If you see a Starcraft unit (Warcraft3) named Mutalisk (Undead Frost Wyrm?), are you going to expect to see it transform into a Cocoon (Spider Eggsack), when you transform it into a Devourer (Undead Frigate?) or Guardian (Large Red Spider)? Or are you going to skip all that and just be able to build them straight off? Or skip the Cocoon part? Are you going to trigger all these changes yourself? Because if you are going to follow the actions as closely as possible then in Warcraft terms, it involves multiple transformation spells on one unit each going to different units. And this is only on one unit in the entire game. It does not include any other unit that requires transformation, like the Hydralisk, any zerg morphs you want to do.

If you want to have the Feel of Starcraft, then you will need to make abilities that transform. But WC3 has a problem, there's only a few transformation spells available to you, Chaos, Druid, Avatar, and some others. And many of them don't work as expected or as they are supposed to. Which means you'll need to make the abilities yourself, using triggers and Channel (with changed BaseID's, without running into the normal abilities that you could use, without changes, like Burrow.)

To what lengths are you willing to go, to make The Feel of Starcraft really be felt, in your map?

Make just The Feel of Starcraft? From your posts it doesn't sound like you want the Look of Starcraft in your map. And if you miss out either the Look or the Feel of Starcraft, then it won't PLAY like a Starcraft map.

Reason #3: Timing
SCII is just around the corner, literally. There's huge hype about it. There are hundreds if not thousands of websites dedicated to SCII. Much info is already out. Movies, pictures and clips galore are out in the public. You want to make a map - which isn't even up to the standard of ones already made years ago, (that assumption is based on your first post and subsequent replies) - based on the older version, without the Look of the game your basing this map on?

Are you going to include SCII units? Or just stick to the older game units?

Reason #4: Starcraft/Warcraft Map History
You yourself know there have been / are Starcraft/Warcraft conversion maps out already. You also recognise they are clones of Starcraft. Which means they are already better than what you are allowing yourself to do or aim to accomplish. Why bother making a map that is already deliberately inferior to existing ones, when you can be making a map on a new idea or exploring some other facet of World Editor that you don't yet know about, or improving a map that you like playing? The "maps" you dont like as clones, are clones for good reason; people like playing Starcraft. People (in my experience) dont like playing half-baked, "half-finished" Starcraft maps that play like Starcraft, look like warcraft, and have the flavours of both but dont play pure. It's like mixing a spoon of salt in with your spoon of sugar into your coffee. Both work by themselves with their own purposes, but not together.

Reason #5: Timeframe
If I read your first post and replies correctly, it's a big project. (Sourcing and importing models - if you WERE to do so - are only a very small and easy part of making a Starcraft / Warcraft map. Will you continue to work on it or will it be another project that gets given up on? Do you have the passion to continue working on your map and idea, possibly alone, knowing all the previously-mentioned information until it's finished?

All this is based on understanding from your posts, that you will be making Warcraft into Starcraft without the model importing; meaning you will have transformations, zerg rushes, renaming units and modifying stats so that they have the same name and information as SC,

Cons:

In short and in other words these are the reasons I think you shouldn't continue on this idea. I believe:

• Players - who like both games individually - wont like the map; because, based on your criteria, it will feel unfinished, half-baked and awkward; making all your reasons for avoiding importing models and reducing filesize to keep the players from leaving as soon as they connect, moot. (That means no point, having no significance.)
• You don't want the Look, but you want the Feel of Starcraft. I say you need both,
• You are unsure of how far you want to go with making the map. Until you have answered certain questions (to yourself, not to me or any other person), you will wander between trying to make your original idea, and getting frustrated with the result. You will be unhappy with your work.
• You have started this large scope of a project rather late. After SCII comes out WC3 editing community will shrivel up - switching to SCII editing or leaving it entirely, possibly leaving you with no useful help, other than what is already published,
• Your focus is divided between making a Starcrafty-Warcraft. You wont be able to master either, with your current thinking and criteria for the map. It wont be either SCII, and it wont be WC3. There won't be much consistency.
• Computers will struggle if you really want to make huge armies in WC3 of the size that SC does well.

Pros:
On the other hand here are some reasons to continue making this map.

• Because you can,
• You will learn lots about triggering and changing things for conversion maps.
• It gives you an opportunity to explore the Object editor and Gameplay Constants that you might not have otherwise taken
• It's going to be a personal map that you play with some LAN friends, or you dont give a damn about what people think of your maps on Bnet.

-------------------------------------------------------------

After all that heaviness, here's a solution that you might or might not be happy with.

Make a WC3 themed map with no or a MUCH higher Foodcap. Lower building/training times so that you can emulate the zerg rush. Make some transformation spells for Warcraft units that make sense in the Warcraft universe. Make Goblin mines that can move.

Do those SC things that you love, but for the Warcraft universe and setting. Don't try to combine the two.

------------------------------------------------------------

If I post in this thread again, I'll help out with more ideas along what you are asking. I just wanted to share my thoughts about your project, with you. I hope you take them as intended, that I'm trying to help you, rather than beating on you. Let me know if you get upset by this post and we'll talk about it over PM.

Good luck with your ideas. I hope you can sort out a few things and get some direction.

 

[NightShade]

have to agree with chovynz.

 

[SarChasm]

What great lengths. Phew!

Firstly, I object when you say my idea is automatically inferior to the currently-existing SC clones. The major issues I had with the current ones are:
1. File sizes are laughable.
2. A lot of content is missing because the creator focused too much on look, not actual gameplay.

I'm not trying to make an EXACT clone of SC using WE. I'm just doing this because I happen to think Starcraft is a better game than Warcraft (excluding maps like DOTA or TD games and whatnot. as far as user-made content goes, Warcraft reigns supreme). The only problem I have with Starcraft is that it's a pretty sloppy game as far as organizing and commanding your units goes, which is completely understandable because Starcraft is a much older game than Warcraft.

Now for point by point:

Reason #1: You mentioned somewhere up there that I need to do the SC things I love, but use the WC universe and setting. That's precisely what I'm doing. I mean, I'm not going to lie. There is absolutely no way a Peasant will ever constitute an SCV. But that won't matter, because I'm not trying to make it an SCV, I'm trying to make it a Peasant. It's just a Peasant that happens to have the same statistics as a Starcraft SCV. So basically, it won't be necessary for me to go scrounging around all the available models, looking for stuff that most resembles its respective Starcraft unit. Perhaps you are right in that importing a FEW custom models won't hurt though if I find I really need one.

Reason #2: Mentioned this a little bit earlier. Perhaps going with NO custom content is a little unreasonable, but that's not really a big issue with me. My goal is primarily to make the gameplay as close to the original Starcraft as possible. As for what makes a Starcraft map "good," that is entirely opinion. When I played the currently existing Starcraft maps, it was impressive at first, but the number of missing units, (and very vital ones too such as Terran Science Vessels or Protoss Templars) the 'ghetto-ness' of the custom models and custom GUI, and the inaccuracies of the game itself (Firebats being made from the Factory?) caused me to find the map below satisfactory. I believe that it's most important that you make sure the gameplay is perfect before working on making everything look exactly the same, which was not necessarily my purpose either. Yes, I do realize that figuring out how to do things such as Mutalisk Evolution, Interceptor spawns, or an effective Pylon system will be difficult, but this whole thing is still a WIP, and there's always room for more learning. I can always refer to other maps as an example, and if it comes to the worst and it turns out it's impossible, at least I'll have learned a lot, which I'm absolutely fine with.

Reason #3: This is a SC clone, not a SCII clone. From what I've seen of SCII, it looks like it's going to become almost an entirely different game. I'm not too worried about it. The point of my map is not to be some stunning 3D eye-candy version of Starcraft. The point is to be able to play a melee game on WC that plays like SC: an older game on a newer engine.

Reason #4: As far as appearance goes, my map is obviously inferior if your criteria is "must be EXACTLY like Starcraft." But again, I reiterate, the point is just to be able to play a game on WC that plays like Starcraft gameplay. I'm not exactly looking for a clone, I just like the strategies used in Starcraft, and would like it if the engine were a little more advanced, which Warcraft offers. The currently existing Starcraft clones may have custom models, giving a better Starcraft look, but many units and models are missing, a lot of them are made by different people, giving different units different appearances in style, and the worst part: the clones are usually not true to the original game as far as gameplay goes.

Reason #5: I'm perfectly fine with going solo(nearly anyway, there's always going to be SOMEONE around to help). A lot of the project isn't too difficult at all. Modifying unit stats won't be hard considering the Blizzard website has all of them (with the exception of a few, which are either minor or easily discovered through asking around or experimentation). I don't have to rename anything if I don't want since this map will essentially be Starcraft in the Warcraft universe, and if it all comes to worst and I never get to finish: QQ, life goes on. =P

Cons:
Players - who like both games individually - wont like the map; because, based on your criteria, it will feel unfinished, half-baked and awkward; making all your reasons for avoiding importing models and reducing filesize to keep the players from leaving as soon as they connect, moot. (That means no point, having no significance.)
There are people out there like you who agree with this statement. There are also people out there like my friends and I who disagree. Seeing as the main audience is my friends, this hardly matters. I tried hosting one of the SC clones on BNet once, and people left before they even connected because of the DL time, so either way, people will be discouraged from playing either maps. Seeing as I can get more people to play with me doing it my way (my friends), this con is void for me.

You don't want the Look, but you want the Feel of Starcraft. I say you need both,
I don't. Not much we can do about it. =P

You are unsure of how far you want to go with making the map. Until you have answered certain questions (to yourself, not to me or any other person), you will wander between trying to make your original idea, and getting frustrated with the result. You will be unhappy with your work.
I'm not sure what you mean here.. My goal is to finish. It's obviously not an original idea because Starcraft is an already existing game, and I'm pretty much ripping off the gameplay. The only original part of my map is turning the theme of it to a Warcraft theme. As of right now, I'm rather satisfied with my work.

You have started this large scope of a project rather late. After SCII comes out WC3 editing community will shrivel up - switching to SCII editing or leaving it entirely, possibly leaving you with no useful help, other than what is already published,
SCII ans SC are their own games. Sometimes I play Halo, sometimes I play Halo 2, and when I get bored of both I play Halo 3, then the cycle starts all over again. As for not receiving any help, there will always be SOMEONE around, and if not, I'm fine with looking at already published examples. More of a constructive learning experience for me.

Your focus is divided between making a Starcrafty-Warcraft. You wont be able to master either, with your current thinking and criteria for the map. It wont be either SCII, and it wont be WC3. There won't be much consistency.
My focus is plain and simple: Make Starcraft using Warcraft engine and theme. I don't want it to be SCII or WC3, I want it to be Starcraft. The only difference is that it's running on the WC engine, and instead of being all space themed, it's fantasy themed. I'm not going to have a Rifleman, call it a Marine, and pretend it's a heavily armoured foot soldier. I'm going to have a Rifleman, call it a Rifleman, acknowledge it as a gun-toting dwarf, and give it the same stats as a Marine.

Computers will struggle if you really want to make huge armies in WC3 of the size that SC does well.
I think this is the only valid con. I'll have to look into this more.

 

[SarChasm]

One more thing.

No, marines are footmen because footmen have no requirement to build. They are the first available unit, can be upgraded to have an ability, and are relatively cheap. They're your standard tier 1 unit that you use to rush.

Yeah, but I can easily change that can't I? Just tweak the unit stats up a bit and whoopdedoo, the Footman now requires the Warcraft equivalent of an academy to make. =P

I think you're missing the point here; see post above.

 

[Jedimindtrixxx]

erm, id say make zerg = undead, not zerg = night elf because:
undead need blight to build on, zerg need that nasty squishy pink thingy to build on which is practically the same as blight

EDIT: erg now that i remember correctly protoss had those things too, my bad

 

[Knight7770]

EDIT: erg now that i remember correctly protoss had those things too, my bad

You are still remembering incorrectly.

 

[SarChasm]

He means the Pylons.

I'm planning on having Night Elf/Zerg buildings produce fertile ground that their tree-buildings can be placed on.

As for whatever I finally decide the Protoss to be, I'm not too sure. =P

 

[chovynz]

Well...Good replies is all I can say. I said my bit now I'll help you.

Will you be including BroodWar / any others or just Vanilla?

Computers will struggle if you really want to make huge armies in WC3 of the size that SC does well.
I think this is the only valid con. I'll have to look into this more.

SC is a sprite engine. WC3 is actual 3D.

 

[SarChasm]

I'm going for all the units/buildings in Broodwar.