Style Vs Cheese

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
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You know… I wasn’t’ sure whether I should make this thread or not… It will most likely be pointless to most people… I expect some flames as well, but after a short inner battle I decided, hell I don’t care, I am writing this… I wasn’t sure how to begin so I just started typing every single word that comes to my mind…

Introduction
What the fuck is this thread about ? As you know Starcraft II is one of the RTS games with most flexible game play, if you are reading this, this means that you have played it, therefore the use of me explaining what makes SCII so rich in game play aspect is close to the zero.

As most of you guys may know there is an impressively large and almost scary amount of strategies that let you to kill your enemy in the first 5-10 minutes of the game. All is fine, right ? except the fact that you do the same shit over and over. Every.single.game. Where is the fun of playing a game if it repeats itself ? Sure, we have a need to be in a good league, to have a lot of wins and a nice icon, but… is this the way ? Clearly yes. Every RTS has a very unpleasant learning curve and you will be beaten, over and over again.

To sum it up so far Cheese are strategies that use only low level units, these strategies are inflexible and will provide you with the assured destruction of your enemy. (if he is a noob or stupid enough not to scout.)

what is style? Uncommon usage of units/abilities/terran/pretty much everything that is original and effective.

Why don’t people use it ? You must think it, you must be able to do it, therefore you need at least moderate micro and macro skills. Where as raising a zealot army or doing a 6 pool won’t touch your brain, the style moves require planning, while doing them your attention will be on the field, you must have a good build order so you are not behind.

An example of a stylish player is LiquidTLO. He is fun to watch, don’t ya think ?
WhiteRa is an example of a non-stylish player. Clearly he is one of the best, however his tactics are pretty well known and commonly enough used by other people.

Style moves are risky, but not All-in like the cheesies.

Second Sum Up So Far making cool original and effective things is stylish. Doing cheese isn’t, it isn’t even interesting.

I will give some examples of cheese and style later, let’s concentrate on what people are doing so far:

Cheese totally pwns style in terms if users. You meet chiesies quite often don’t you ? The ones who don’t rush early game go either for high level rush (void ray rush for example) or turtle and stack “The ultimate army of total destruction pwnage and massacre” ™ The style users/players are a very rare breed, mostly because like I’ve said above, cheese is usually easier to make and harder to block.

You won’t meet that many stylish players, like I said even though most cheeses are all in, if not known exactly which one of the 548935 cheese tactics your opponent is using you are as good as dead.

So, what does style have to offer if cheese can give us easy wins ? Well, for once you actually use more then 1 unit type per game. You learn to micro and macro. You actually use more of the game play that Starcraft has to offer. You will get some epic games.

What the fuck was I yapping about so far ? cheese is easier and maybe more efficient, but all in. Style isn’t nearly as risky and a lot more beautiful. You use a lot more units, you learn to micro/macro. Style can be used any time when thought of, cheese starts from the start of the game.

Which is Better?

Seriously, so far style seems to be inferior to cheese… right ?
The showdown
Not really, I went on 1v1 against the biggest cheeser I know, (he cheesed himself into platinum 1v1, those were his exact words) and guess what ? I won. Sure, I knew what he was going for and I was with the best defensive race (terran) but I managed to hold of his proxy wave attacks and managed to sneak 2 hellions, upgraded with the infernal thingy, sniped out his economy and owned him soon after.

However, if I hadn’t known what he is going for, this would be an impossible mission.

OK I think you are getting pretty tired from reading this. So am I from writing it, so to cut a long story short, I will just give you some style examples.


Now, the promised examples (Screens are Provided by my good friend Siretu and are taken from the replays of our showdown for the TH tournament)
The first SS is really hard to capture. Basically banelings in action. What is stylish about it is that I used the corner to hide them there, that way they are close to the approaching enemy and remain hidden until the very last second as well as I am using the narrow way to maximize the AoE damage done.
Effective ? Yes. Well played, if I can say so myself. :D

Style thing 2- DROPS of any sort, if you manage to evade your opponent’s eyes, drop units and deal crucial damage to his economy THAT IS AWESOME. You get quite an edge in game and it looks fucking amazing. On this picture you can see Siretu going to make a drop. That stupid zerg (me) wasn’t expecting that and now is gonna pay dearly for it. Workers are slow producing units, manly because you have just one worker production building per base, if you are zerg, you must spend all your hardly and over a lot of time gathered larva in order to replenish the losses. Go Siretu, go !

Hidden banes in places where you’d normally hide your army and try to ambush someone ? Apparently Siretu wanted to get this spot so he can fuck up my next attack. Sadly, the bane bombs do enough damage to destroy this unit squad. How would I manage that with cheese ? Stylish? Yes. Cheesy ? Nah. Effective ? Way more than a lame shit uhm… six pool.



Nukes are awesome, don’t ya think ? I couldn’t agree more… but why have just 1 nuke at a time ? Spamming multiple nukes in his entire base is as stylish as you can get- Total destruction, massacre, and hardly any way to evade it. One of the moves I was really glad I managed to pull off. You use just a couple of units and nukes aren’t nearly as expensive as most people think. With 100 minerals and 100 gas spent on a nuke that is successful, you can deal way more damage than with a mutalisk (that has the same cost)



A push with SCV’s and a ghost ? Effective ? no way, ohh shit wait, those SCV’s took the dmg while the ghost sniped out my marines. God Damn it ! Well done Siretu, way to beat the shit out of my marines with minimal losses (if any at all)

Make a proxy factory on a unreachable ramp and place, you guessed it siege tanks. Ensuring total dominance and protection over this expo, Siretu’s natural expo. For him to take this down, he’d need to devote his attention and be vulnerable… for just enough time so that I can make a single but effective nuke.



Kaboom : ]


How about some concentrated nuking ? A fucking stylish move made by Siretu in this match was when he concentrate-nuked my nuking places… You’d be surprised how much damage 2 nukes do…



Those are enough examples for now…

Okay so, what about you guys ? This is pretty much everything I think about cheesy tactics. What about you guys ? Which game style do you prefer ? What is your opinion on cheese ? And if you’ve done something stylish, go ahead and share it.

And, Siretu, thanks again for the screens :)
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
I have done cheese.... I fail to feel anything exept boredom after 3 matches... unless the cheese goes wrong... then I regret going cheese in the first place...
 

Oninuva

You can change this now in User CP.
Well some people play games to win, some people don't care, and while I do agree, cheesing is lame, you can't really stop people from doing it, if they do it, they obviously enjoy it because of the easy wins.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
I am not trying to stop it. I am trying simply to make a point that there are other ways to play as well :thup:

imo some people cheese because they don't know how not to cheese, or in other words, they cheese because they can't macro.
 

Viikuna

No Marlo no game.
Cheese is something that game designers should fix.

Players job is to use them both.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Yeah cheese 2v2 is simple as shit- proxy near one of your opponent;s bases and attack the second you have SOMETHING. Continue to pump out units until you destroy him. If his team mate hasn't left already attack him now and finish him off.

Still there are some mean combo's you can do in 2v2. For example henriksky and me played against to tosses (me toss him terran) I built gate units, he went for ghosts. Epic match.
 

celerisk

When Zerg floweth, life is good
" I am sure you make some pretty good moves "

Good moves? Certainly, plenty.
Been reading all the "awesomest strats" threads here.
Gets real simple after that.

All you really need, obviously, is some 50 Zerglings, 30 Mutalisks, 20+ Hydralisks / Roaches and a few, like 6 or 7 (can't have too many because of Thors), Broodlords, along with detection, a Nydus Worm or two and a couple Banelings for good measure.
Somehow though, for reasons whose logic fully escapes me, I just can't seem to be able to pull that off in game...

Or, for Protoss, all you really need (again, here too, because it's obvious), is just some 20 Stalkers, 10 Sentries, 5 Void Rays, a
couple Phoenixes just because, an Observer or two, 3-4 Immortals and 5 Colossus.
If time permits, add a Mothership.
Well, never managed that one in a game either.
Which is probably why I don't play Protoss.

Terran are simpler. Just get 30 Marauders, full upgrades of course (what else?!?), 20 Vikings, 10 Hellions (blue), 20 Siege Tanks, 4-5 Ghosts with cloak and nukes, some Medivacs and you're already all set.
Scenic walk. Even more so if you replace some of those with 7+ Thors. No thinking required there.
Same as above though... which is why I don't play Terran either. It never works in game for me.

Not to mention that Zerg simply own because you can just refill your army count from 0 to 200 in, like, 50 seconds.
6 Hatcheries, 12+ Larvae each... some clicks, done.
Resources are a no-brainer really. I've recently seen some replays where having 13000+ Minerals "in the bank" was the norm. (9 * 1500 = 13500... yep, a complete base... :p)


Well, of course, I'm only Platinum. Which I use as an easy excuse why I've no idea what I'm talking about.

As for cheese... yeah, well, it happens.
Met someone in beta who had perfected 6pool to an art-form.
According to his profile, he had some 200 games, with, by looks, an average playing time of around 10 minutes.
If that's what you need... that's what you need.

Is a proximity Pylon cheese?
I guess that depends on who you ask. And if he lost to it or not :D

Or the "4gate rush". Why would that be a rush? No idea, but that's still what most people call it. Including me, but that's because I play Zerg.

Any attack with Zerglings, even it's 200 of them, with +2 / +2 and speed, is obviously a "Damn Zerg Rush".
Whining just gets you some freedom fries with that.


From an observation point of view, it's somewhat more interesting to see something new of course.
Like some creative use of Colossus-drops (rarely seen, but fun if it happens, even if it happens to you).
Reaper-drop mid to late game... never happens. Except that one time where my expansion turned to ashes in... 10 seconds? - might have been faster.
5 Nydus Worms going up at once. You kill the first one easily, second too, third... oh, look, here they come :p
A Tank-drop near the natural on Lost Temple is NOT creative game play... you see it all too aften. And, yet, does it get boring already? Don't think so.


Well, I think the game still has an awful lot of potential.
And plenty, plenty strategies and tactics, and build-orders, and you name it it's got it for plenty time to come.


Just play and enjoy.

And if you lose... play more. Optionally try to learn something, from both losing and winning.

gf hl
 

GooS

Azrael
Good article, cus basically it's what I think aswell :)

Cheese is something that game designers should fix.
Atleast two cheese tactics will be made worse in the balance patch, Proxy Rax-Tech for Reaper Cheese, with the added buildtime you will have a hard time putting out enough reapers.

Same goes for Gateway cheese with zealots and the increased buildtime.

However, rax-(reactor) cheese with marines will still work, though I don't see it that often.

And in my opinion the lamest cheese imo when I forget to scout, the photon cannon cheese, once 1 tower is up it's, almost, unstoppable.

With Terran you maybe have 2 marines which will die on engage and if you wait, more towers will pop up, if he's bad you can kill the probe.

With toss atleast I think there's really not much you can do, anyone has any suggestions?

With zerg, you could have quite many zerglings and could possibly take out the pylon.

All based on the failure to properly scout.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
I find the "how to build the ulltimate army" (tm) quite funny :D


>I've recently seen some replays where having 13000+ Minerals "in the bank" was the norm. (9 * 1500 = 13500... yep, a complete base...

Siretu, Siretu...

>Well, of course, I'm only Platinum. Which I use as an easy excuse why I've no idea what I'm talking about.
"Only" platinum... :p

>Met someone in beta who had perfected 6pool to an art-form.
According to his profile, he had some 200 games, with, by looks, an average playing time of around 10 minutes.
If that's what you need... that's what you need.

I'd take him on. Not saying I'd win, but I'd give him my best shot.

>Is a proximity Pylon cheese?
I guess that depends on who you ask. And if he lost to it or not

Proxy stuff are cheesy when they are uber early game. Everything after the first second of mid game that is proxy is risky since the players have more units on the field, therefore It'd be harder for the player to use it without failing... eventually.

>Or the "4gate rush". Why would that be a rush? No idea, but that's still what most people call it. Including me, but that's because I play Zerg.


I don't have a clue as well... I don't really find the gate strategies cheap, because every single unit has pathing manipulation (charge/blink/forcefield/permenent invisibility. The high templars are casters.)

>Any attack with Zerglings, even it's 200 of them, with +2 / +2 and speed, is obviously a "Damn Zerg Rush".
Whining just gets you some freedom fries with that.

Clearly the whiners don't understand the difference between rush and push. Even though I find the earliest zergling rush, known as the 6 pool uber cheep (even though I use it now and again when I play with the swarm) if you can't protect yourself from a rush that is not a six pool that is your fault... for example today I was able to stop an annoying rush that would have dealt a lot of dmg to my economy (it was veery early) with 2 zealots (I am just glad I was able to get them out on time) I have to admit that that was pretty well planned from my opponent... eventually I couldn't really get pass his god damn spines so I had to make a protoss drop and warp in troops in his base to win...


>Like some creative use of Colossus-drops (rarely seen, but fun if it happens, even if it happens to you).

Been there done that. (The reason why it is used so rearly is because the tech is expensive, risky and it needs a lot of micro... even though it is one way ticket to hell for your opponent if done correctly.


>Reaper-drop mid to late game... never happens. Except that one time where my expansion turned to ashes in... 10 seconds? - might have been faster.

Been there done that.... (I was the zerg)

>5 Nydus Worms going up at once. You kill the first one easily, second too, third... oh, look, here they come

Never tried that... for some strange reason I have 0 failed worm infiltrations so far (by failed I mean that I ahve dropped at least a few units)

>A Tank-drop near the natural on Lost Temple is NOT creative game play... you see it all too aften. And, yet, does it get boring already? Don't think so.

The proxy barracks was gonna produce some hellions who'd control his expansions's SCV population, but seing as the game was turning into a "Nuke the crap out of your opponent" I desided to lift it off to a safer spot... my choice of options wasn't a small one but tanks somehow seemed the most effective one for the time being. + I needed decoys...

>And if you lose... play more. Optionally try to learn something, from both losing and winning.


I always try to learn something from each match, even if it is "next time you play on this map scout these grasses first"

>gf hl
Likewise.

And thanks for the long and well written comment :)


EDIT:
>With toss atleast I think there's really not much you can do, anyone has any suggestions?

Yes- if you see that the pylon is not finished frenzy attack him with probes. Else you are pretty much fucked.

The increased zealot build time kinda scares me because I get zealots really fast to fend off early aggresion and sometimes they arrive just in time... the extra 3 (was it 5 ? ) are not wellcomed...
 

Oninuva

You can change this now in User CP.
As terran, if you don't scout the early zealot rush or wall in, it's GG. Which is why it's good for us that build time is increased. Sure you could build a bunker but it doesn't really work haha with the build time, marines inside, and limited range. So either scout or wall in. I do prefer to not wall in as terran now as it's better but with all the cheese, it's almost no do-able.
 
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