Completely Replacing In-game Systems?

[D.V.D]

Movespeed higher than 522 is achievable with Jesus's MoveSpeedX

 

[Ashlebede]

Movespeed higher than 522 is achievable with Jesus's MoveSpeedX

... ... ...

Requirements:
- Jass NewGen
- AIDS
- Key Timers 2

... ... ... what is the difference between moving a unit periodically using timers and moving a unit periodically using timers?...


Additionally...

As much as I love having all these systems around that add as this wonderful abstraction, I'd like to use as little of them as possible, since I become dependant on the developer of the system to update it, add bug-fixes, new features, and improved stability, whereas if I wrote it, I'd know it's my own code, and therefor, should yell at myself.

That's out of the question. Want him to repeat the same thing a third time, tooltiperror, or are you going to help him?

you are assuming you need tools to do something, only because that is how you do it.

He knows best. See what I did there? I used your own point of view as an argument.

Anyways, Lyerae said he didn't want to use those systems, although he knew J4L put a lot of work in them and they are great, fully working and all.

I hate repeating myself. I know his motives may be hard to understand for most of those who read this thread, but, still...

Would you give peanuts as a christmas gift to someone who's allergic to peanuts? Not unless you wanted to kill him...

Would you give systems as help to someone who's allergic to systems? You shouldn't, either.

 

[Accname]

if someone is allergic to systems he should leave these forums at once and never turn back.

though i dont like to implement too many systems of other people myself i do it from a different point of view. i try to make these systems myself because i think i can learn a little bit more each time i do it i do it a little better.

if you are sure you cannot improve nor win anything from doing it yourself stop wasting time and start using it for the mapping. nobody is gonna play wc3 forever, its slowly dieing and the best maps have been made long ago. if you really want to create a decent wc3 map these days you shouldnt lose any time. with a little luck there will still be enough players for a small community when you finish your project eventually.

and if you really want to take all that effort to replace all systems of wc3 what do you need wc3 anymore? if you really can do this make your own game instead of taking an old one and replacing everything...

 

[Ashlebede]

you are assuming you need tools to do something, only because that is how you do it.

Quoted thrice, if I count this post. That is really all I can tell you. If you need it explained, then you can't understand ; it's like an inside joke.

 

[Darthfett]

Quoted thrice, if I count this post. That is really all I can tell you. If you need it explained, then you can't understand ; it's like an inside joke.

Do you realize that by using vJASS, you're essentially using someone else's system? There's a limit to what you should and should not do. Obviously you should not have hundreds of systems in your map, but neither should you code entire systems from scratch. Many of these systems (such as AIDS, Timer systems, etc) are there because they are extremely efficient, and because they are extremely useful.

Going out of your way to code everything yourself is actually quite common in a programmer's "philosophical journey". It's even got a term for it, "Reinventing the Wheel".

 

[tooltiperror]

Perhaps you should find the meaning of inside joke.

And, you can do something extremely complicated or just use AIDS. You're choice. Now can you stop quoting pointless things and actually get on the topic?

 

[Lyerae]

Do you realize that by using vJASS, you're essentially using someone else's system? There's a limit to what you should and should not do. Obviously you should not have hundreds of systems in your map, but neither should you code entire systems from scratch. Many of these systems (such as AIDS, Timer systems, etc) are there because they are extremely efficient, and because they are extremely useful.

Going out of your way to code everything yourself is actually quite common in a programmer's "philosophical journey". It's even got a term for it, "Reinventing the Wheel".

I know how efficient the systems are, but as I said before, the main issue is the lack of control over the internals.
I'll eventually need this control, and while I'd be able to recode the thing later, I'd prefer to not have to stick with the interface someone else had made, or change hundreds (if not thousands) of lines of code, just to get it to work.

If there was a way to ensure that I could make the changes I need later without having to use a preexisting interface, or poking at the insides of a system made by someone else, then I would use the preexisting systems, but since I can't, I'm not.

and if you really want to take all that effort to replace all systems of wc3 what do you need wc3 anymore? if you really can do this make your own game instead of taking an old one and replacing everything...

I was going to, but I don't have art assets.

 

[tooltiperror]

And at what point would you ever have to change AIDS? It's just illogical not to use it.

 

[Ashlebede]

Do you realize that by using vJASS, you're essentially using someone else's system? There's a limit to what you should and should not do. Obviously you should not have hundreds of systems in your map, but neither should you code entire systems from scratch. Many of these systems (such as AIDS, Timer systems, etc) are there because they are extremely efficient, and because they are extremely useful.

Going out of your way to code everything yourself is actually quite common in a programmer's "philosophical journey". It's even got a term for it, "Reinventing the Wheel".

Oh, vJASS is someone else's system. So is GUI. So is JASS. So is C. So is Assembly Language. So is Machine Language. So is the english language. So is...

Although vJASS is Vexorian's system and not mine, there is a limit to how much of someone's work you should use. As stated earlier, it is more harduous to code everything yourself, but it does allow more stability, and I personally cannot analyze someone else's code. Ever. It'd require an unreasonable amount of comments... and it would become one of those hard-to-decode walls of text, which are even harder to understand.

That would be a reason not to use those systems. You'd need to read them over and over if you were going to use them, and it's hard to find which method or function does what. By creating your own system, even if it takes more time to implement, it allows you to use it more efficiently if you're going to use it a lot.

For instance, I tried reading the code of AIDS. No way I can figure out how to use that thing, even though it's probably really, really simple and obvious. I just can't figure it out, for the simple reason that I didn't write it myself and don't know where what stuff is. I know it sounds stupid, it does. It's like food. It's always better homemade than those canned apple pies.

Not to mention the pretty useless argument that most of the functions/methods in those systems may be completely unneeded, which would mean your filesize can increase by a couple hundred bytes or even a few 1024's of bytes!!!!11 (back in the ould days, it was a lot... >>D: )

But yes, I am in that "phase" of my "philosophical journey" and will probably remain in that phase for the rest of my life. Ever read the book "The Alchemist"? =D<<

And at what point would you ever have to change AIDS? It's just illogical not to use it.

AIDS doesn't seem all that great. All it does is... wait, I ain't even sure what it does... I think it just saves integers for structs in the custom value of units... and what I did with that other code I posted was store structs using the custom value of units... without the [ljass]//![/ljass] calamity. If you're only going to use it for one type of struct, I don't think AIDS is really useful.

 

[tooltiperror]

Obviously you don't understand the usefulness of AIDS. It can create:

• BuffStruct
• Damage
• Statushttp://www.thehelper.net/forums/showthread.php?t=136126
• MoveSpeedX
• Energy Field

and I got no time to list.

 

[Lyerae]

I don't care about the usefulness. I care about the long-term implementations.
The systems will eventually be replaced, and I don't want to have to rewrite a lot of my code just to fit a possible new interface.

But enough about the systems. Let's get back to the original discussion, please.

Edit,
For the record, I'm using Zinc if it makes doing any of this harder / easier.

 

[Bribe]

vJass >> Zinc.

Zinc doesn't have readonly in structs (which are useful and save map file size for get/set operators).
Zinc doesn't allow you to declare natives.
Zinc doesn't allow you to put static-if's outside of functions (making optional chunks of code not an option).
Zinc has stupid errors...

if (true)
{
    BJDebugMsg("This does not compile.");
}

do
{
    BJDebugMsg("This does not compile.");
    break; // even with the break statement.
}

If you think Zinc is revolutionary...

function foo takes nothing returns boolean
endfunction
//
function foo() -> boolean
{
}

You should look into a real programming language and design your own real game.

bool foo()
{
}

 

[Lyerae]

I don't need readonly, static-ifs, or natives, and I can deal with the errors.
I'd make my own game, but again, I don't have the art assets.

 

[Sgqvur]

>I'd make my own game, but again, I don't have the art assets.

hehe ^^ hurry up then, it will be 2012 in no time

 

[tooltiperror]

How many 'art assets' do you need to draw sprites? Learn C# and use Textures with XNA. Or learn C++ and use Win32 and a physics library for 2D gaming.

It's not that hard when you actually start doing it.

 

[Lyerae]

This isn't built to be a sprite-based game. I'm talking about 3D models, textures, and all that.

 

[Ashlebede]

If you're going to make your own game, I'd highly suggest Flash for its compatibility. Most people won't play a game from the internet simply 'cause they don't want to install anything, and there are many sites on which you can upload flash games without needing to get your own domain name ; you can even get a bit of ad revenue from those sites.

However, Flash is costly and its 3-D engine is very limited, although existant.

Another problem with flash would be the absence of the right-click, which is mostly a problem for RTS's.

I was about to start an RTS in AS3... let's say I "started", though most of what I made so far is graphics... NES-like graphics.

 

[Accname]

and how are you making wc3 maps without art assets? oh right, you are using the models made by someone else. you know you can do this even when you make your own game?

i just dont thing this will go anywhere. its just pointless to remake everything. what do you need wc3 to remake all the systems? it seems to me you are using wc3 to make some kind of game only because that was the first thing you had in your hands. if you really think hard about this you will most probably realize how rediculous this is, besides i dont think the performance will be close as good as of standard wc3 maps. saving all data twice, the standard systems and for yours, it will be epic overkill of memory usage for only a little gain. and in the end your systems will most probably not be as accurate as the standard ones because the capabilitys of the wc3 editor are very limited if you think about it.

look at this thread, everyone out here, well, exept ashblade, is telling you that its a bad idea. we wouldnt do so out of boredom or because we think its funny or something like that. it really is a bad idea.

take your time, get some team, do programming like the real guys and create your own super awesome computer game get rich and famous. but dont try to reinvent the warcraft its not going anywhere.

sorry for the offtopic by the way.

 

[Lyerae]

If you're going to make your own game, I'd highly suggest Flash for its compatibility. Most people won't play a game from the internet simply 'cause they don't want to install anything, and there are many sites on which you can upload flash games without needing to get your own domain name ; you can even get a bit of ad revenue from those sites.

However, Flash is costly and its 3-D engine is very limited, although existant.

Another problem with flash would be the absence of the right-click, which is mostly a problem for RTS's.

I was about to start an RTS in AS3... let's say I "started", though most of what I made so far is graphics... NES-like graphics.

I'd do it in C++, since I'm probably going to college for Game Development (in C++ / C).

and how are you making wc3 maps without art assets? oh right, you are using the models made by someone else. you know you can do this even when you make your own game?

I can't get any high-quality models. Not for free at least, and I don't have the money to pay for them.

And honestly, I don't care if it's a bad idea or not. I'm doing it regardless.

 

[Ashlebede]

I'd do it in C++, since I'm probably going to college for Game Development (in C++ / C).

Then you'll learn and/or practice C++ once you go to college. Not to mention ActionScript and C++ are very similar, although AS is more like JavaScript. Anyways, don't make your game using C++ because you'll learn C++ in school. I really suggest AS, because of the easy to publish and you'll probably have a much larger public, although AS projects are generally much smaller.

Or just use WC3 and don't replace in-game systems. Re-creating them would be for other games.