How to improve Wc3 human strategy

[Kelv]

I've basically tried to improve my strategy as I went on. I started out doing poorly but right now I'm 7-4 with a 3 win streak. Obviously the more I win, the tougher opponents I will face. I thought I was screwed in the last game when I, as a level 5, was going up against a lvl 12 but he actually didn't seem that good. Anyways here's the strategy. It's mainly try and get gryphon and knights asap and using MK and paladin.

Here it is:
Build alter, House, 3 on gold. Build a bunch of peasants, fill up gold mine first, then send the rest on wood.

Send the guy on House to just keep on building houses for the rest of the game basically. Send guy on alter to build barracks. I do build some towers, normally 3-4 depending on the layout entrances of the base. At this time I also build a Lumbermill. As soon as I have the wood, I upgrade to keep. I pump out 3 footies, and then with MK, I go creep some of the green bases.

As soon as keep is finished, I get Paladin and priests quickly. I pump out a few peasants to prepare for expansion. I then upgrade to castle. I then go to a nearby goldmine and setup expansion. I also attack some orange creep sites. I build a aviary and blacksmith. Sometimes I build the blacksmith earlier but a lot of times I forget about it.

When castle's finished, I pump out knights and gryphons. I keep a descent amount of priests around at all times, around 4-6. During this time my original 3 footies die out. I upgrade my units eventually to 3-3.

Units I don't use often: rifleman, sorceress(never use, spell breaker(never use), flying machine(never use), mortar team (sometimes I use it when I know I can destroy the base), siege engine(used once), and dragonhawk rider(never use).

I don't like any cheap strategies such as mortar teams in zepps.
I feel like I'm not using the humans that effectively but I'm not sure how well I can do about micromanaging with many different types of units.

 

[Daskunk]

I've basically tried to improve my strategy as I went on. I started out doing poorly but right now I'm 7-4 with a 3 win streak. Obviously the more I win, the tougher opponents I will face. I thought I was screwed in the last game when I, as a level 5, was going up against a lvl 12 but he actually didn't seem that good. Anyways here's the strategy. It's mainly try and get gryphon and knights asap and using MK and paladin.

Units I don't use often: rifleman, sorceress(never use, spell breaker(never use), flying machine(never use), mortar team (sometimes I use it when I know I can destroy the base), siege engine(used once), and dragonhawk rider(never use).

I don't like any cheap strategies such as mortar teams in zepps.
I feel like I'm not using the humans that effectively but I'm not sure how well I can do about micromanaging with many different types of units.

You allways get the same things every time?!?!

How often do you creep? You should pretty much creep constantly, unless you need to attack the enemy. Also, do you ever get an item shop?

Btw, it would help a little if you posted a replay.

 

[Kelv]

You allways get the same things every time?!?!

Yup, . I'm don't really have the knowledge atm to know what to do when facing different opponents.

I don't really do a lot of creeping. I basically just do it at the beginning but I don't like going too far away from base in the middle of the game for fear of an attack, and teleport doesn't always put my forces in a nice configuration. Of course I haven't had that issue since I first started so I may be more skilled to manage my units now in case it happened.

As far as item shop pertains, I haven't build one except in one or two games. Can you sell items from creeps in those? I tried selling items to various shops but I'm not sure which ones you can sell to.

Here's a replay from last night. I noticed he wasted a lot of towers in case I did a mortar in zeppelin attack. I was pretty proud how I was able to defend an early crypt fiend attack, without loosing any units except maybe a peasant or two, didn't bother counting since I don't really know how many units I have except for one on mine.

 

[Daskunk]

Yup, .

Well, thats a big problem that needs to be fixed.

Creeping is really important. Most of the time, so are item shops!

You can sell items at shops you build, yes. You can sell items at any shop that you can buy items from. You don't need to sell ALL items, though.

First thing I noticed, you built three farms at the start. That was not needed, you had enough farms at two. You should get farms as you need them.

Second, you should shift up commands with peasants. It makes them easier to handle, and they don't stand around doing nothing as often.

You shouldn't build your lumber mill so far out. To increase harvesting speed, you want it as close to the peasants as you can, and if you move the peasants far out where you build your mill, they would be easier to kill for the enemy.

Your base build in general, not just the mill, is set up poorly, IMO. I try and make a wall, with one entrance, and put towers behind the wall. I can attach a replay to show my base build, which should help. (Allthough, I must say I might not have the best base build. . .)

You don't need so many towers at the start, only later. At the start, build one arcane tower close to your base and that (and maybe ONE other tower) should be enough to hold off an early attack, as long as you make it target his hero. Later on towers are fine, though.

You should allmost never be sitting around doing nothing. If you aren't scouting or attacking the enemy, you should creep. Then, get a shop so you can heal after creeps, too.

Your main problem is you wait to long at the start to attack or creep, you just build up an army.

Try numbering you army and buildings, too. That could help.


I have to go now, I hope I helped some though.

 

[Kelv]

What items are good to buy at the self-made item shops. Also, what about goblin shops? I don't ever buy mercs. I also don't buy neutral heroes, or a third hero for that matter.

I would like to see a replay of yours to see your base layout and use of units. So I'm guessing you don't think I should rush to castle and keep my army small before that? Luckily peasants can hold off an assault if I use that strategy. Maybe I should rush to tier 2 to get priests and 2nd hero and then creep a lot. Maybe build some more footies. Maybe riflemen. I'm a little weary of changing my strategy drastically because I'm on a 5 game winning streak. However, I would rather do that then start loosing with my current strategy.

 

[Daskunk]

What items are good to buy at the self-made item shops. Also, what about goblin shops? I don't ever buy mercs. I also don't buy neutral heroes, or a third hero for that matter.

I would like to see a replay of yours to see your base layout and use of units. So I'm guessing you don't think I should rush to castle and keep my army small before that? Luckily peasants can hold off an assault if I use that strategy. Maybe I should rush to tier 2 to get priests and 2nd hero and then creep a lot. Maybe build some more footies. Maybe riflemen. I'm a little weary of changing my strategy drastically because I'm on a 5 game winning streak. However, I would rather do that then start loosing with my current strategy.

Its not like you shouldn't ever fast tech to castle. And you can, but don't let your hero and footment sit around while you do it.

The scroll of regeneration item heal all units around you over time when you use it. (Be warned, if a unit gets attacked it will stop healing that unit) I normally creep untill all my units are low health, then use one of them to get my army healthy again. That way, you can creep as much as you want without loosing units. Or you can use them after fighting the enemy.

Clarity potion regenerates the heros mana over time. Use it to get mana back after fights and creeping, too.

You should try and have a Scroll of town portal all of the time, so you can get out of fights against the enemy that you're losing, or to save your hero.

Potion of health instantly heals your hero a lot. This and mana potion are good for heros. You can save your hero with health potion without town portaling your hero away. A high level hero can really own if you keep healing and replenishing mana.

Orb of fire is good for making your hero able to attack air.
The other items are good too, but those are the basic, most needed items.

Your stratagy will not work against some better players, even if its fine now. You'll have to learn counters to really get good.

Mercs, neutral heroes, and a third heros can be good if you know how to use them, but they aren't important.

I don't have time to help you much right now, but in the future I can 1vs1 you and also attach replays. For now, heres some counters.

Against your stratagy, you would get footmen with defend. Defend makes towers do a lot less damage to footmen, enough less that towers would no longer be a problem. To counter the footmen and millita(peasants) they would get a mountain king with thunderclap, an archmage with blizzard, or a bloodmage with flame strike. If, unlike the enemy you had, they used their units better, peasants really wouldn't be a problem.

With human, this is generaly the counters I do against nightelf:

NIGHTELF:
Gunmen agains hunts.
Footmen with defend against archers.
Mortar teams (and gunmen) agains dryads, hunts, and archers in later game. Mortar teams are good agains archers if they have Fragmentation Shards.
Gryphon Riders agains druid of the claws\bears.
Gunmen\dragonhawk riders against any air.
Spellbrakers against druid of the claw or druid of the talon.

Ill try and post more later. Just remember, heros are REALLY important. Level them up, keep them alive, and get them good items. A highest level hero can allmost kill a whole army.

 

[South-Titan]

Strategy when building defensive lines:

Build an arcane/cannon/arrow tower.
Next, build farms all around it so it looks like:


FARM FARM FARM
FARMTOWERFARM
FARM FARM FARM

This supplies eight food and a tower (preferably Arcane) and also protects the tower from melee enemies and such.

 

[Kelv]

Thanks for the assistance. I'm glad some people are interested in the main game instead of just the custom games, which I can say I've been a victim of ever since I finished the campaigns.

I briefly skimmed your post Daskunk. I'll definitely try your strategy South-Titan.

I played two tournament games. Unfortunately it's not ranked by ladder as you would know. I ended up loosing both, I'll just briefly say why I lost them.

First one I was outclassed, human vs human. I noticed he seemed to go rifleman heavy. He also harassed me with Mortars. I notice that I seem to always get two heroes while they have one hero that's a high level. This guy went with the paladin which from what I've learned, is not as good as the MK, particularly against early rushes. He did build flying machines and tried to take out my base from the back, but my gryphons made them pretty useless.

There was one point in which the wall of defense I made, screwed me up. You said make a wall with one entrance point, guarded with towers behind. His army attacked when mine was in my base, recovering after a heavy loss. His army attacked, I tried to send my units out but they were filtering through a tiny whole and I couldn't get them out so he picked off my army while I couldn't do much.

Second game, I was against undead. I was doing fairly well, or so I thought. My base turned out to be right next to his. I was harassing him but it wasn't very effective. He didn't even expand. I consider his strategy fairly cheap, since hes trying to exploit my weaknesses instead of trying to match my strengths. I know many disagree with me on this. I guess I'm just sick of people who try tactics such as rushes and zepps. Nonetheless I have to be able to counter this later on. I was kinda slow on getting gryphons, I pumped out knights first. I didn't tower much and I didn't try the wall because of my bad experience the game before.

I may not be good enough for tournaments but at least I realized my strategy definitely has weaknesses.

 

[Whitesock]

http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/ is a great resource for learning strats and such. Each of the seperate race's forums has a sticky that goes over the basics of every item, unit, hero, build orders, and strats that race has to offer.

Also, I would like to add that cannon towers take far too long to tech up to and are pretty much useless compared to a guard tower. I always rush an arcane tower so it finishes teching to an arcane right before the heros can get to my base. Other than that I'll have a max of 2 guard towers (at least one) until I know my base is about to be hit, when I may put up to 3 more depending on how big the push into my base is.


For your fight with the undead, you have to understand that UD at tier 3 can beat any other race very easily, especially human. As a human it is extremely vital you push into the UD's base when you start pumping out tier 2 units, which means no gryphons/knights. Take a look at the human overview thread in the human forum of the website I posted above for some human vs. UD strats.

 

[Daskunk]

There was one point in which the wall of defense I made, screwed me up. You said make a wall with one entrance point, guarded with towers behind. His army attacked when mine was in my base, recovering after a heavy loss. His army attacked, I tried to send my units out but they were filtering through a tiny whole and I couldn't get them out so he picked off my army while I couldn't do much. .

Lol..

Well, first of all I generally only make a wall at the start, not constantly throughout the game.

Second, the entrance doesn't have to be THAT small.

Lastly, The important part is that your base is just generaly compact and the towers are in the inside so they can't be picked off. It doesn't have to be a wall as not as the buildings are close together. (As long as you make sure you don't make the buildings get in the way.) Its actually better for the towers to NOT be near the entrace, becuase it makes it harder to get out, just make the towers anywere behind your wall. The idea is that they cant kill the towers from the outside, so they get killed while they try and bust in. But if they go through the entrance, once they get in you should block the entrance with a unit and make your millita attack. Then they will be surrounded and being attacked dead by towers and your units.

BTW, you will town portal to were you click to town portal at. For an example, click the town portal on the ground outside the wall, and it will townportal you there so you won't be stuck behind the wall. (It has to be close enough to a town hall to work, though).

 

[Kelv]

Thanks, what do you think of the strategy of a tower with 8 farms around it? I've been using that for the last couple times. I didn't know that you had the option with portals, I thought it was sorta random.

So far my biggest weaknesses are when the other team makes a fairly large army near the beginning. I was thinking I should make either more footies, or combination of footies and rifleman. What do you think?

Also when should I use sorceress, and spell breakers? What about dragonhawk rider vs gryphon? Seems like dragonhawk could be good against chimeras, frost wyrms and base assaults? I really need to learn some more information about each of the units.

Right now my stats for humans are 11-8.
I think for fun, my next game will be 4v4 to change up the pace.

 

[Whitesock]

Also, as a quick tip with human bases, you want to always have a very open back end of your base for later expansion (like higher tech unit producing buildings) and have a very solide front line of buildings for your towers to hide behind.

Also, you do have an option with portals, but besides when you TP to a base to defend it you'll want to double click it so your hero doesn't die while you TP.

 

[Kelv]

Normally what I've been doing is putting my higher buildings in the new area created by my lumbermen from cutting down trees. Btw: the 4v4 turned out to be a disaster .

 

[Genkora]

A fun thing to do if you get an archmage to level 6 is to mass teleport a group of siege engines straight into the enemies base using an invisible unit.

 

[black.sheep]

Hmm, this is just my 2 cents.
A nice little stratergy of mine with human, is to rush to morts while getting stocking up on footies, I also get a pally. I then use the morts to pick off the main force of the army, while my footies act as a meatshield, I also use flare to reveal targets, and the pally to make the footies live for longer. If the enermy has flyers, i get copters or rifles.
Good or bad?

 

[Kelv]

For the past two games, both of the games I won, one against undead, second against orc, were when we ran out of resources and had destroyed each others outposts. Luckily both times I kept my two heroes and he lost both of his thanks to my MK's stun bolt. Also in both games, the remaining units he had were all flying units, destroyer for undead, wind rider against orc. I basically had the same setup, around 6-8 knights, I had gryphons but the wind riders were chewing them up.

In the undead game I won by just rushing his base and taking hits from the flying guys but healing with paladin.

In the orc game, it was unintentional but I was trying to find if he had an expansion and his flying units were following me. I ended up getting one of my knights netted by a creep base. Over time I was picking off his flying units with storm bolt. We'll the creep base also netted a couple of his wind riders down which allowed me to attack them.

 

[Daskunk]

Thanks, what do you think of the strategy of a tower with 8 farms around it? I've been using that for the last couple times.

Its accomplishing the same thing as putting towers behind your wall, it just takes more buildings.

So far my biggest weaknesses are when the other team makes a fairly large army near the beginning. I was thinking I should make either more footies, or combination of footies and rifleman. What do you think?

Depends what units they get.

Also when should I use sorceress, and spell breakers? What about dragonhawk rider vs gryphon? Seems like dragonhawk could be good against chimeras, frost wyrms and base assaults? I really need to learn some more information about each of the units.

Dragon hawks are good against most air, but you're going against something like Hippogryphs or Gargoyles you need to have more dragonhawks then the enemy has air, becuase Hippogryphs\Gargoyle can attack air, and any of them that you do not use shackles on will destroy you're dragon hawks, which frees whatever unit the dragon hawk was shackling, quickly making you lose the battle.

Spellbrakers are good against any casters. I usually go preists, Sorceresses, and spellbrakers with an archmage if I'm going against another human. Make sure you have more spellbrakes then him, though. Sorceresses are also good against some orc, like grunts\raiders.


Few tips before I go again: Number your army and your buildings (unit producers) by selecting them and pressing control + the number you want them to be. If you remember the hotkeys for the units you want to build, you can be in a fight yet still produce units by pressing the number your barracks is set to, then pressing the hotkey for footmen (F) and then press the number your army is. It makes it a lot quicker.

Also, you can surround an enemy hero if you have enough units by pressing the hotkey for move and clicking on his hero. They will close in, and if your units were around him when you started he will be stuck, and you can force him to teleport or die.


I'm wrighting wrather sloppy and brief, so I might be rather hard to understand, but I really need too be working on something. .

And black.sheep, if the enemy got air you would be owned.

 

[Kelv]

I tried making sorceress in a game against orc. He went tauren chieftain and he owned me pretty bad. If I do loose in a game, its normally when the guy is ranked level 1, and he won't be for long. He made a lot of headhunters. My knights were squashed pretty easily. Gryphons didn't have a chance. Sorceress didn't do much.

If the guy goes blademaster and tries to harass my peasants, I can usually own him with my tower and MK stun. I was able to get a couple rushers to quit early on because they couldn't defeat my base. I'm hesitant on going archmage even though I read its great, because of the lack of stun.

Last game was interesting.The guy was level 12 or something, he went random and ended up with undead. At first its equal but near the end of the game when I have bunch of knights and gryphons, the tie quickly switches in my favor. MK stun, kill his heroes, fairly easy. However, when he realized this, he start blaming that I should have randomed because those who don't are noobs. He later said humans are the easiest race to play as, he also said undead is his weakest race.

 

[Daskunk]

I tried making sorceress in a game against orc. He went tauren chieftain and he owned me pretty bad. If I do loose in a game, its normally when the guy is ranked level 1, and he won't be for long. He made a lot of headhunters. My knights were squashed pretty easily. Gryphons didn't have a chance. Sorceress didn't do much.

If the guy goes blademaster and tries to harass my peasants, I can usually own him with my tower and MK stun. I was able to get a couple rushers to quit early on because they couldn't defeat my base. I'm hesitant on going archmage even though I read its great, because of the lack of stun.

Last game was interesting.The guy was level 12 or something, he went random and ended up with undead. At first its equal but near the end of the game when I have bunch of knights and gryphons, the tie quickly switches in my favor. MK stun, kill his heroes, fairly easy. However, when he realized this, he start blaming that I should have randomed because those who don't are noobs. He later said humans are the easiest race to play as, he also said undead is his weakest race.

Well, I do worst against orc and undead, so I can't offer much advice on orc matches.

If you use the surround tatic I told you about, it can work as a substitute for stun. Often if you surround a hero correctly, it will TP away, or die and make the enemy give up his attack.

The level a player is means very little. Really good players can make new accounts or lossbot to get lower level so they get matched up against noobs. Other players get lots of errors. Then, some noobs get free wins, matching them against better people . .

 

[Kelv]

Why would a good player want to fight noobs? They create a new account just to fight low levels? I don't get it. Also how prevalent are hackers in wc3 ladder?