StarCraft 2 Editor - Wish List

[Blackveiled]

If there is no documentation for the scripting language, then yes to a GUI because otherwise, we can't find the functions unless we extract their native list or something.

Yeah, and Warcraft III was very popular for the reason that people did not really have to learn anything to make a map. Blizzard tends to add GUI in all their games so far, so

 

[Uberplayer]

>people did not really have to learn anything to make a map.
.. what? Of course they had to learn.

 

[TheDamien]

Yeah, and Warcraft III was very popular for the reason that people did not really have to learn anything to make a map.

But if you want to make a good map, you have to learn something. Often this "something" includes Jass.

Really, all GUI contributes is the spam equivalent of maps - every "OMFG LOAP MAK UR OWN GANG" and "ARE U RETARD LMFAO?!" you see on battle.net is there almost entirely because of the GUI.

 

[CEMEHbl4]

GUI rox
i really enjoy to see a script in graphical form...

i think it was a genius idea from blizzard

 

[Dakho]

there are some great games, imo, which could be done in GUI. Wintermaul, Enfos, Custom Hero Line wars (probably)... even a lot of DotA is GUI-able, as is WoW Arena.

 

[TheDamien]

i really enjoy to see a script in graphical form...

You don't see the script in graphical form; it's still bars of text.

there are some great games, imo, which could be done in GUI. Wintermaul, Enfos, Custom Hero Line wars (probably)... even a lot of DotA is GUI-able, as is WoW Arena.

Technically every map is "GUI-able" if you are willing to use custom script sections and have enough time on your hands. This proves very little - Jass has enormous advantages in expressiveness, power, flexibility and performance. It is simply better in every conceivable way, which renders the GUI quite redundant.

The only purpose GUI really serves is to hold people back from making better maps.

 

[PurgeandFire]

GUI will lead to another epicwar map database.

Everyone will post maps that has like a boss and a hero but is only like 64x64 then give themselves a perfect rating.

But if there isn't GUI, then we will probably see a lot more melee maps.

 

[Daskunk]

Technically every map is "GUI-able" if you are willing to use custom script sections and have enough time on your hands. This proves very little - Jass has enormous advantages in expressiveness, power, flexibility and performance. It is simply better in every conceivable way, which renders the GUI quite redundant.

If you like jass, use jass, but that doesn't mean it should be removed. Some people find GUI much more easy, if you don't that is fine. There is bad maps made with GUI, that does not mean GUI is only used for bad maps. As for jass being better in other ways then how easy and fast it is for you to use, hopfully sc2's GUI will be better then wc3's anyways.

 

[Dakho]

GUI is nice for those who:

a). are stupid

b). don't program

c). don't want to commit so much time to learning JASS when it will become obsolete as soon as SCII comes out.

d). who are lazy

e). who don't have a need to make complicated games

 

[TheDamien]

If you like jass, use jass, but that doesn't mean it should be removed.

Of course it doesn't. GUI shouldn't be removed because people "use GUI", it should be removed because it harms map development.

Some people find GUI much more easy, if you don't that is fine.

Such people have never attempted anything sufficiently advanced.

There is bad maps made with GUI, that does not mean GUI is only used for bad maps.

But most people willing to put effort into their maps would also be willing to learn the scripting language if GUI was not available. This results in a better map.

As for jass being better in other ways then how easy and fast it is for you to use, hopfully sc2's GUI will be better then wc3's anyways.

It will have the same problems (except the leaks, hopefully), but to a lesser extent. The scripting language will always be a better choice.

 

[Daskunk]

Of course it doesn't. GUI shouldn't be removed because people "use GUI", it should be removed because it harms map development.

How does it do that?

Such people have never attempted anything sufficiently advanced.

They havn't attempted anything sufficiently advanced becuase it is not required to make a fun map or acomplish what they want. Footmen frenzy is simple, requires easy triggers, yet it is very popular. Allthough, I don't like footmen frenzy..

But most people willing to put effort into their maps would also be willing to learn the scripting language if GUI was not available. This results in a better map.

I don't think people would want to spend alot of time to learn Jass just too do somthing they could do in a few seconds with GUI. I'm sure jass is better and faster at making maps, But I don't think people should be forced to use it.


Anyways, The convorsation is kinda pointless since I'm pretty sure blizzard wants the editor to be noob fiendly and will include GUI anyways.

 

[phyrex1an]

How many here can honestly say that they would have started mapping if they instead of a point-and-click interface saw an empty text editor when they opened the trigger editor?

I for one didn't start with reading tutorials that explained jass syntax or api documentation and I know that I never would have.

 

[TheDamien]

How does it do that?

In three ways: the first, as already outlined, is by allowing people to make very bad maps quickly. Presumably, if the GUI did not exist such people would not be inclined to make maps before learning how to trigger them (there is no appeal in making an inert melee map). This doesn't mean that there will be no low quality maps, but it does mean that the standards will improve.

The second reason is that the GUI can never be as expressive as a scripting language. Often GUIers will have to resort to roundabout ways to achieve things which would otherwise be extremely simple in Jass - this has negative penalties on performance, map size, code reuse and development speed.

The third and most important reason is that the GUI impedes the personal progress of the mapmaker. Most people start with a "sure, I can use GUI forever and still be just as good" mentality; many go on to learn Jass, but some remain using GUI and thus needlessly limit themselves. The removal of GUI would be for the good of everyone.

They havn't attempted anything sufficiently advanced becuase it is not required to make a fun map or acomplish what they want.

In many cases, GUIers have low aims because they are using the GUI. If users were forced to learn a scripting language right off the bat, you might find "what they want" suddenly becomes much more expansive.

But I don't think people should be forced to use it.

People are forced to work within the bounds of the editor, no matter how many features it has. The removal of the GUI will not make much difference, in that regard.

EDIT:

How many here can honestly say that they would have started mapping if they instead of a point-and-click interface saw an empty text editor when they opened the trigger editor?

I for one didn't start with reading tutorials that explained jass syntax or api documentation and I know that I never would have.

This is mainly Blizzard's fault. If they had given appropriate documentation, example code and maybe a function browser, etc it would be much easier to learn.

 

[SFilip]

> it would be much easier to learn.
Learning is not that much of a problem.
Starting to learn is. And a big, scary, white text box is known to scare people, especially when compared to the shiny, colory GUI.

 

[Sim]

> GUI is nice for those who:

> a). are stupid

You, sir, completely missed the point. There's nothing wrong with starting/continuing with GUI.

Those very few who directly started with JASS... did not especially become better or somewhat "cooler" than others. Honestly, almost everyone started with GUI and that is normal.

 

[CEMEHbl4]

> GUI is nice for those who:

> a). are stupid

You, sir, completely missed the point. There's nothing wrong with starting/continuing with GUI.

Those very few who directly started with JASS... did not especially become better or somewhat "cooler" than others. Honestly, almost everyone started with GUI and that is normal.

disagree

i am not stupid, you know
but prefer GUI

becouse its faster for me to make a script

 

[Dakho]

Ah sorry, I wasn't saying everyone was stupid. I'm just saying most people that GUI, including myself, fit into one of those categories, not all.

 

[TheDamien]

If Blizzard went to the trouble of making a decent, user friendly IDE for the scripting language it would not be so daunting to open your Sc2 world editor and find a text box.

It would be cool if the Sc2 editor had something like the ActionScript IDE in Flash - a collapsible function lookup menu, easy and comprehensive documentation. This would surely make it easier for new users.

disagree

i am not stupid, you know
but prefer GUI

becouse its faster for me to make a script

If you learn Jass, you will no longer prefer GUI for all but the most simple tasks (setting the time of day in a test map, for example, is a task that might be left to the GUI).

GUI is nice for those who:

a). are stupid

b). don't program

c). don't want to commit so much time to learning JASS when it will become obsolete as soon as SCII comes out.

d). who are lazy

e). who don't have a need to make complicated games

B is quite irrelevant. Using the GUI means you are, fundamentally, programming. The only difference is that the GUI is a much more stubborn and difficult method of programming anything significant.

Jass is better for C, because in the end you will likely waste more time trawling through GUI menus than you would learning Jass; so the time "invested" is negligible. For a similar reason, Jass is also better for D. It is easily possible to write triggers in Jass in a sixth of the time it would have taken using the GUI. Especially, compare arithmetic in Jass to arithmetic in the GUI and it is obvious that the lazy stand a lot to benefit.

E is quite false - if the map is triggered, it will usually have at least a page or so of triggering. More if it's to be reasonably bug/leak/glitch free.

By the way, I'm not trying to be an "elitist" here - I simply think that putting the GUI in the Sc2 editor is inhumane.

 

[SFilip]

> I simply think that putting the GUI in the Sc2 editor is inhumane.
So you're saying that you started mapping with Jass right away?

 

[TheDamien]

> I simply think that putting the GUI in the Sc2 editor is inhumane.
So you're saying that you started mapping with Jass right away?

Not at all - this is my point. By lacking proper documentation, example code and a decent editing environment, the world editor essentially forces its users to go through a period of GUI usage.