The New Arizona Immigration Law

[New_U.S.]

Where do you stand on it? How do you feel about the issue of illegal immigration in general?

 

[sqrage]

What about some back info?

Are you talking about the one where cops can confront suspected illegals about their papers?

If so I really don't see anyone thinking that's a good thing... It's obviously very nazi-like and something that should be avoid. The Constitution still exists, though it's obviously being spat upon all over the place today.

 

[New_U.S.]

However at the same time, its the only tough immigration law active. Its reiterating national law. Although "can I see your papers" does seem Nazi, I don't like how people believe enforcing immigration laws is a bad thing. Its the law.

Lets look at it this way, if I was to steal something of value, and you asked random people if I should go to jail or not, most would say I should. However if asked if we should deport illegal aliens, suddenly it becomes a massive debate...

 

[sqrage]

Well that's a very close minded argument that shows you obviously don't know any illegals personally. Let me just say; any stereotypes you've been taught to believe are wrong.

And your example about robbery, well robbery is a violent crime and violent crimes physically and mentally harm others, those are crimes which cannot be tolerated and can never be decriminalized or liberated. Illegal immigration is something that perhaps can be liberated and can be done so without destroying the foundations of a normally functioning society. By reporting illegals, you'd be committing more harm (by sending them back to their usually dreadful countries) than they are doing by living and working here.

That's my view on it, not really up for debating it (perhaps), that's not my thing, just wanted to put my views out there.

As for the law itself, I think the constitution should be held above the Federal Government and I know that is the common view. You're not breaking any federal laws by not actively enforcing immigration laws, it can be done so passively unless it turns into a huge issue which I don't believe it has. And I think there are better, more humane ways to deal with the issue of illegal immigration.

 

[Darthfett]

Well that's a very close minded argument that shows you obviously don't know any illegals personally. Let me just say; any stereotypes you've been taught to believe are wrong.

And your example about robbery, well robbery is a violent crime and violent crimes physically and mentally harm others, those are crimes which cannot be tolerated and can never be decriminalized or liberated. Illegal immigration is something that perhaps can be liberated and can be done so without destroying the foundations of a normally functioning society. By reporting illegals, you'd be committing more harm (by sending them back to their usually dreadful countries) than they are doing by living and working here.

That's my view on it, not really up for debating it (perhaps), that's not my thing, just wanted to put my views out there.

You seem to be debating about whether illegal immigration itself is a problem. I'm going to sidestep arguing against this, and assume that everyone here agrees there is a problem with people illegally entering the country. Instead, I'll argue whether or not this is a good method of preventing illegal immigration.

I'll admit that I don't understand exactly how the law works in these sorts of circumstances. The other day I was arguing about this very law, and I said it should be just fine as people can simply show their driver's license as proof of citizenship. However, they said that that will not work, as not all states require proof of citizenship for a driver's license. I'll refrain from making my arguments until I've found the answer, so here is my question: Is a driver's license considered proof of citizenship?

 

[sqrage]

>>Is a driver's license considered proof of insurance?

Proof of insurance? I guess you mean citizenship? As you said, some states don't require proof of legality in order to get your license. Not to mention what about people who don't intend on driving?

And having random cops approach you UNDER NO SUSPICION and ask for your identification is such infringement on civil liberties. I don't know, I feel like half the world really doesn't care how little freedom and protection against the law they have anymore, especially when it's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Here they are approach you which automatically means you are assumed guilty and then you are proving yourself innocent by showing your proper form of ID. Total BS imo.

Hell, even the federal government is challenging that law.

And just so you guys know (I didn't know this till recently) ALL people in the United States are protected by the 4th amendment. Along with a couple of others.

 

[Darthfett]

>>Is a driver's license considered proof of insurance?

Proof of insurance? I guess you mean citizenship? As you said, some states don't require proof of legality in order to get your license. Not to mention what about people who don't intend on driving?

Whoops. Yes, I did mean proof of citizenship (my mind kept thinking the word, and I was trying to avoid saying it the entire post )

And having random cops approach you UNDER NO SUSPICION and ask for your identification is such infringement on civil liberties.

I don't think a cop would go up to a random person and ask them for their ID because they have absolutely no suspicion. There's obviously going to be a reason, though that reason may actually be a little biased (but then again, who DOESN'T have bias?).

I don't know, I feel like half the world really doesn't care how little freedom and protection against the law they have anymore, especially when it's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

I'd really prefer for cops to be able to do their job, than to be forced to sidestep laws that really don't help anything. I know this is completely my own opinion, but I just feel that there are a lot of people out there who are making a big deal out of nothing. So what if a cop asks you for your ID? It's not going to do anything except make your interruption via the cop move along quicker.

Here they are approach you which automatically means you are assumed guilty and then you are proving yourself innocent by showing your proper form of ID. Total BS imo.

Just because they approach you doesn't make you guilty. A cop has to have some way to try to get information in order to do his job. They aren't omniscient, and they aren't the bad guys.

 

[sqrage]

>>So what if a cop asks you for your ID? It's not going to do anything except make your interruption via the cop move along quicker.

Yes, unless you happen to just run out to grab something from the deli without your ID, or you forgot to bring your ID with you that day. Have fun getting detained for the rest of your day.

>>Just because they approach you doesn't make you guilty.

Yea it does, they are approaching you under the assumption that you are illegal, otherwise you wouldn't be approached in the first place.

>>I don't think a cop would go up to a random person and ask them for their ID because they have absolutely no suspicion.

So then what do you define as suspicious? Someone with a turban and a beard? Someone who looks like they're from South America? That's obviously wrong on many different levels and probably even worse than it being random.

 

[Darthfett]

>>So what if a cop asks you for your ID? It's not going to do anything except make your interruption via the cop move along quicker.

Yes, unless you happen to just run out to grab something from the deli without your ID, or you forgot to bring your ID with you that day. Have fun getting detained for the rest of your day.

Fair enough, but if this ID is a driver's license (which should be in your wallet), why did you forget it? I'll admit I don't think they should require you to carry around anything that you normally wouldn't. A driver's license would be fine, but a birth certificate or something else would not.

Yea it does, they are approaching you under the assumption that you are illegal, otherwise you wouldn't be approached in the first place.

Suspicion - an impression that something might be the case. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're assuming you are. They are suspicious that you may be.

So then what do you define as suspicious? Someone with a turban and a beard? Someone who looks like they're from South America? That's obviously wrong on many different levels and probably even worse than it being random.

I was under the impression that the law stated that anyone who was pulled over (or confronted) by police for one reason could also be checked for their citizenship, not that this could be a reason to pull someone over (or confront them). This would be a minor but good specification.

 

[sqrage]

>>I was under the impression that the law stated that anyone who was pulled over (or confronted) by police for one reason could also be checked for their citizenship, not that this could be a reason to pull someone over (or confront them). This would be a minor but good specification.

95% sure it's that they'd be specifically looking for aliens to pull over and ask for proof of citizenship. Hell, if it was what you stated I'd be for it too.

 

[ReVolver]

>>I was under the impression that the law stated that anyone who was pulled over (or confronted) by police for one reason could also be checked for their citizenship, not that this could be a reason to pull someone over (or confront them). This would be a minor but good specification.

95% sure it's that they'd be specifically looking for aliens to pull over and ask for proof of citizenship. Hell, if it was what you stated I'd be for it too.

I was asked to show my citizenship while I WAS AT WORK because my job fits the perfect description of illegal alien work, lets just say I'm not working any more construction companies here in Los Angeles, CA can't imagine how hard it is if I was in Arizona, racial profiling is what it is, and not one white co-worker got asked.

 

[New_U.S.]

Well that's a very close minded argument that shows you obviously don't know any illegals personally. Let me just say; any stereotypes you've been taught to believe are wrong.

That's a very close minded argument as well. Just because you know one that may be a very good person doesn't mean illegal immigrants are a benefit for the country. The massive crime, gang, and tax payer problem created by illegals is a significant issue.

And your example about robbery

No. Mine was theft. You don't need to put a gun to someones face to steal their things.

>>I was under the impression that the law stated that anyone who was pulled over (or confronted) by police for one reason could also be checked for their citizenship, not that this could be a reason to pull someone over (or confront them). This would be a minor but good specification.

95% sure it's that they'd be specifically looking for aliens to pull over and ask for proof of citizenship. Hell, if it was what you stated I'd be for it too.

If you don't have an ID on you, its not like you're getting a quick ride across the border. They'll probably check you're history though. They do have computers in police cars.... Anyway, since the vast majority of these instances would occur during a traffic pull over, you would need your license anyway.

Hell, even the federal government is challenging that law.

Obama is. Not the entire federal government. Its a political move too. Suddenly Obama can show that he is pro-Latino...

 

[Ghan]

> And having random cops approach you UNDER NO SUSPICION and ask for your identification is such infringement on civil liberties.

It seems you haven't been correctly informed yet. This kind of behavior is specifically prohibited under the new Arizona law. Law enforcement officials are only allowed to ask for proof that you are in the country legally 1. In legal contact, such as a traffic incident like where you get pulled over for speeding, and 2. When "reasonable suspicion" exists that you are in the country illegally. Racial profiling is specifically prohibited as well.

Now then, we can certainly argue about what exactly is meant by "reasonable suspicion." I myself don't really have a clue who gets to decide that or what it might be. However, a great many people have been quite misinformed about this new law, including, it seems, President Obama.

 

[tooltiperror]

A similar law exists in Florida, without racial restrictions, so police down there go around asking Mexicans and Cubans for their identification.