Does socialism work?

[WolSHaman]

People seem to forget humans are animals. Yes, sometimes we are compassionate animals, but animals nonetheless. An animal's most basic instinct in survival. Every creature is born with a Me or Him mentality in which the interests of the self are infinitely more important than the interest of the other.

Socialism, and by extension any form of society whose aim is complete economic equality, makes the incorrect assumption that all men are born equal. Simply put, this is not the case. Some men are stronger than other men, some men are smarter than other men, some men are more attractive than other men. Yes, even the most unfortunate, ugly, mentally retarded man deserves equal civil and human rights, but is it fair to put them on the same economic level as someone who can create a rocket that can fly to the moon? I don't believe it is. I think humans work with what they are given at birth, and depending on how they apply their gifts, are entitled to greater rewards. The problem with socialism is that it gives a nuclear engineer the same benefits as a janitor. Sure socialism sounds nice on paper, but in application it is unfair.

people aren't rewarded based on their talents in capitalism. They're rewarded based on how much they make, which is determined by market forces and how much people are willing to pay. An athlete can get paid millions to throw a football around, and can make more then a dedicated scientist working on a cure for cancer. Random chance will throw geniuses and smart people into opportunities where they cannot thrive, or promote fools (Paris Hilton). People do work with what they're given, but it's not always enough...

 

[ElderKingpin]

thats because WE as Americans put our focus on more unimportant things. Basketball players wipe their butts with what the President Makes. The PRESIDENT of the United States. It is if you can achieve. Capitalism lets you achieve your dreams, as long as you work for it.

 

[SerraAvenger]

thats because WE as Americans put our focus on more unimportant things. Basketball players wipe their butts with what the President Makes. The PRESIDENT of the United States. It is if you can achieve. Capitalism lets you achieve your dreams, as long as you work for it.

Then you aren't the animal anymore. If there is something more important for you than the "me or him" question, it is not what matters anymore.

Simply put, this is not the case. Some men are stronger than other men, some men are smarter than other men, some men are more attractive than other men.

True. Definitively true.

Socialism, and by extension any form of society whose aim is complete economic equality, makes the incorrect assumption that all men are born equal.

Well, this totally depends on what you call socialism. If you think of the so called "utopian socialism", perhaps. But if you think of different forms of Socialism, you end in a society where people aren't forced to do something. They have the chance to find their gifts, and employ them.
I recall a case in Germany of a gifted 25 yrs old unemployed female informatician. She was fine to work in the gastronomy, so she got a letter from the employment bureau, saying that an entrepreneur from Berlin was interested in her profile. When she called there she had to find out it was a brothel where she should work as a prostitute. As she refused, she was told that her social transfers would be shortened or even canceled according to Hartz IV.

That's how capitalism works. In fact, in pure capitalism, she wouldn't have had social transfers in the first place, forcing her to prostitution or similar anyway. That is what happens with gifted people in capitalism. This is how people are treated, and you cannot neglect that. If you think this is more fair than to have highly gifted people get "just as much" freedom, wealth, luxury like everyone else, it is ok, I just don't think thats just.

Sure people are assholes in leviathan. Sure capitalism works on paper, taken we are all greedy assholes and lives are just numbers. 2000 starved. Okay, 2000. John starved. Ben starved. Carol starved.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html

 

[Durandal]

You assume that all humans act like that, because that's what they do in today's capitalistic society, where you have to act like that to survive. Our society completely revolves around money and greed, when you say that greed is human nature, you don't even consider the possibility that greed is artificially made out of scarcity of resources and not our fundamental behaviour.


How many times do I have to explain this to you? People MUST go far in their own self-interest because capitalistic societies work that way. Money rules EVERYTHING. Profits are the only thing to worry about in a society like ours, and to maximize profits, you cannot worry about people's well-being. If you don't maximize profits, you get destroyed. This is the sickening backside of capitalism, and the sickening backside of the concept of money itself.

Why the fuck do we even have money? It restricts technology, endangers our lives and renders us arrogant, suspicious and disconnected from each other. If we applied all the technology that exists to create electricity without pollution, we could be independent of fossil fuels today. Why don't we just do that? Because of money, the oil industry's lobbyism and influence stagnates our technological progress and slows down our chances of saving the world from an environmental collapse. Money is the most idiotic invention of humanity. You can't eat money, you can't power your computer on money, and you can't run your car on money. If you think that a world without money would collapse under over-consumption, think about how our lifestyles already are. We over-consume on biblical scales, and while we do it, people suffer for no reason. If the technology was put into practice instantly, everyone in the world could have enough to eat and electrical power.

But nah, you see, we have to maximize profits to survive in this ridiculous world, while wasting away our lives. Running on the hampsterwheel, every single day. We have limited time here, I just don't see why we need to use the only life we have to maintain a corrupt and heartless institution, based on pieces of paper that have no other practical value than we give it. Bah, I put my faith in the Venus Project, and hope others will as well.

That being said, a communist society is in no way less capitalistic than the society of today; they both revolve around money, just in different ways.

All of human history points to the fact that everything you just stated there is utter bullshit

Let me put something to you

When people have access to everything they need, they behave very differently compared to a society where you need to constantly care for yourself instead of others. Greed isn't hardcoded in our genes, it only happens because we need to make sure we come out better off than other people. In a communist society, we all have what we need to survive, maybe even more. There's no reason to continue being greedy when all you need is right in front of you.

This is bullshit

Know why?

First off, all economical science states this, that scarcity is when you cannot have enough of everything you need or want, or something along those lines, needless to say, it also states it's impossible for there to be anything but scarcity, you can never have enough time, food, money, security, whatever. No government and no one can provide for every want and need for everyone.

It's a fact, if you believe otherwise, then your either deluded or just plain stupid, no offense, but I refuse to waste my time trying to talk to someone who won't face facts. I'm not stating an opinion, I'm stating a plain and simple truth, it's how the world works. It's why poverty exists, it's why their is competition to come out ahead of other people.

That being said, is why your hypothesis of people having access to everything they need is...quite pointless to bring up, as it's just and only that, a hypothesis, it's not testable, unless your God, which is a moot point anyway.

No greed isn't hardcoded into genes, no one said anything like that anyway, but self-serving motives and self-interest is in the form of survival of the fittest and self-preservation. It is human's nature to desire more then others if they believe they will be better off in life. Whether this is true or not is a different story all together. To sit there and tell us that money is the cause of arrogance, suspicion and disconnection, is retarded, money never was and never will be the cause of most human flaws, while it may factor into it, it is not the root of problems like that, some people are arrogant simply because their Narcissistic, or they have emotional flaws inside and try to make themselves feel better by acting like they're superior, until they believe it, not because of 'money'. People are suspicious, because guess what? We live in a world where their are horrible, nasty people that want to do nasty things to other people, so suspicion is in many ways to be expected, those that are completely trusting don't do that well.

Oh and people are disconnected, because that's normal too, this is a callous uncaring world, most people are not given to empathy towards their fellow man, why the hell do you think the Bible and so many other religions/philosophies of life emphasize treating your fellow man decently so much?

Gee, I don't know, because man isn't naturally inclined to show kindness and empathy towards his fellow man, most do not follow the Golden Rule. If they were, you'd be right, and the world would be a whole lot better then it is now.

In a communist society, you don't have everything you need and more, many people under the regime of Stalin would have said they did, but they didn't realize how brainwashed and manipulated they are, communism is a wonderful concept, it's a shame it can't work worth a damn, too easily abuse-able by power-hungry ambitious people.

Yea that's right, power-hungry and ambitious, I forget to mention them, their are also people who aren't just greedy, they want to control everyone and everything. You readin me there? You better, cause I dunno what it is with some of you, you seem to think humans are more decent then they really are, I really wish that was the case, where evil people were the freak and good people the norm.

Sadly, humans are a selfish race, if you don't believe me, then go spend some time studying human nature with some professional psychologists, and maybe spend some time in Africa, where those war lords are doing horrible things to people, or maybe somewhere else where humans treat other humans like shit.

Maybe then you'll believe me.

Neither Socialism or Capitalism is inherently bad, it's just when they're on either extreme they're bad, a mixture of both is to be desirable, but then that's often true of either thing.

@ElderKingPin

You really...really...need to read up on your history...and make sure they're not written by biased U.S. historians, like most of America's damn history textbooks are, what you've been stating is usually the reactions of biased historians, don't read too much into it, go find out what Socialism is really like

 

[ElderKingpin]

compromising might only bring more problems as one side will desire to overpower the other.

---

I think it is much more then greed, because even as a Capitalism, America manages to rack up

in debt. And you must be pretty friggin greedy, or must be in some really deep trouble, to spend that much over your budget.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$4.14 billion per day since September of 2007.

 

[Durandal]

I think it is much more then greed

You'd be correct

Think corruption, stupidity, and overall incompetence

 

[BlowingKush]

Our society completely revolves around money and greed, when you say that greed is human nature, you don't even consider the possibility that greed is artificially made out of scarcity of resources and not our fundamental behaviour.

This statement sums up this entire debate and has been the crux of my philosophy for a long time.
Plus it coincides with my idea of government.




1. It is the obligation of the US Government to operate a non-interventous
policy, therefore allow funding for Manhatten style projects in technology in order to provide unlimited sources of resources for our people.

2. If Government is properly and efficiently exercised, it will ultimately be unnecessary for any government at all. Only defence, research, and national healthcare will be necessary, for highly technological advanced societies need only limited government.

3. Only through the correct application of technology can any society truely become free. When each citizen has complete access to all necessities necessary to live a free and fullfilling life, competition, and therefore capitalism, is no longer relevant.

 

[Durandal]

This statement sums up this entire debate and has been the crux of my philosophy for a long time.
Plus it coincides with my idea of government.

Except what you've just said made infinitely more sense then anything he said, and actually sounded workable(assuming we can get past human nature)

 

[BlowingKush]

Don't get me wrong.
There will always be greedy dumbasses in any society who would rather better thier own lives at the expense of others. People like this are inherently selfish and are usually unreachable.

But in my model, the amount of people like this would be dramatically reduced, and people like this would become very visible, making them less likely in wanting to pursue such lifestyle.

I doubt there will ever be a time when every person can have a mansion on a white sand beach and an ocean side bar, but I do imagine a world where survival is no longer the primary product of our labor, and instead replaced by research and entertainment.

My problem is that my dreams are too big, and this world moves too slow.

Luckily there is marijuana.

 

[DrStyles]

.

 

[Slapshot136]

I think it works well in certain situations, especially on the internet

 

[tooltiperror]

As the cliche stands, Americans are afraid of communism. And with communism, socialism.

 

[mapguy]

Capitalism is in part fair and in part not.

- It is fair because more you work, more you gain.
- but this is not fair because some works pays much more than others even if the less paid is harder!
- money rules. YOu can even ignore laws if you have money.
- people kill for money, steal for money, rob for money, corrupt for money, give their butts for money...

SOcialism ispart fair and part not because:
- YOu must believe that the government will help you, but sometimes they dont.
- You gain as much as your neighboor, even if you are a spacial enginier and he is a lan house manager that works 3 hour a day.
- all persons are threated economically equal.
- everyone gains the same.
- everyone lives the same.
- the government takes care of you
- the only problem of socialism is the questions: "Is the goverment really going to take care of me? Or they will just care about the needs of those influent and powerful persons?"

THERE IS NOT THE BEST GOVERNMENT!
which makes a government good is not it's name or economy, it is the people who rules it. I would live in any kind of country, capitalist, socialist, communist, whatever, I just want to live in a place with capacited persons in the command.
But, it is sad to say...nowadays, the government dont give shit for you, since world is ruled by money and possessions, if you dont have money, or a land, or a big house, or a sucessful job you fail at life and no one cares.

Spoiler

Today, you must fight by yourself, because you can't trust that the government will take care of you, not because he is evil, just because we have a HUGE NUMBER of persons living in the world, and most of us will die without beeing know by 0.01% of them.

 

[Slapshot136]

your missing one of the biggest problems with capitalism - the fact that it exploits everything for quick money - especially people and the environment, and greed does not drive progress - otherwise you wouldn't see so many things disabled just so that competitor's can't also use/improve upon them, examples would be cell phone chargers - why do we need 10 different adapter types? not for any practical reason certainly, only to make more profit off of people

 

[mapguy]

your missing one of the biggest problems with capitalism - the fact that it exploits everything for quick money - especially people and the environment, and greed does not drive progress - otherwise you wouldn't see so many things disabled just so that competitor's can't also use/improve upon them, examples would be cell phone chargers - why do we need 10 different adapter types? not for any practical reason certainly, only to make more profit off of people

The problem is not:
capitalism vs. socialism

it is:
individual need vs. social needs

A capitalism with fair prices, good payment, no greed, but you still need to work hard is a good place to live.
A socialism where more you effort more you receive is also a good place.

 

[Slapshot136]

The problem is not:
capitalism vs. socialism

it is:
individual need vs. social needs

the problem is that neither system works well,

not individual needs vs social needs

 

[Zakyath]

There's very much talk about capitalism for a socialism-debate.

 

[13lade619]

A capitalism with fair prices, good payment, no greed, but you still need to work hard is a good place to live.
A socialism where more you effort more you receive is also a good place.

how can you call them capitalism/socialism if you defy their main ideals?

Capitalism = Profit
Socialism = Equality

 

[esb]

There just needs to be some balance. Finding that balance is the hard part.

Apparantly, if Cap = Profit and Soc = Equality, we need to find Equal Profits.

 

[Zakyath]

how can you call them capitalism/socialism if you defy their main ideals?

Capitalism = Profit
Socialism = Equality

Capitalists also wants equality, but they want to achieve it in another way.