Should women be drafted into the military?

[Siretu]

I fully agree with womens having the same rights as men, but you can't just take all the advantages and skip the disadvantages.

 

[Samael88]

I fully agree with womens having the same rights as men, but you can't just take all the advantages and skip the disadvantages.

I agre with that. Women have some things they can not do and men have some things we can not do, and we can not just ignore that fact.

Even tho women in the army would not have much problems, there still are some issues such as:
Sexual distraction, emotional distraction and the fact that they have a bit more difficulty getting muscular than men does.

This army question is actually one thing that I take out everytime I get into a discussion about feminism.
I usually say "Is it really a bad thing that you don't have to get into combat when there is a war?", that ususally shuts them up for a while

 

[nabbig2]

I agre with that. Women have some things they can not do and men have some things we can not do, and we can not just ignore that fact.

Even tho women in the army would not have much problems, there still are some issues such as:
Sexual distraction, emotional distraction and the fact that they have a bit more difficulty getting muscular than men does.

This army question is actually one thing that I take out everytime I get into a discussion about feminism.
I usually say "Is it really a bad thing that you don't have to get into combat when there is a war?", that ususally shuts them up for a while

Yeah, that's the only argument people have against women being drafted, is that they are weaker than men and therefore less useful in war. However, there are plenty of men that are weaker then many women. It's just sexism, and as a result, it really sucks for men.

 

[Varine]

Yeah, that's the only argument people have against women being drafted, is that they are weaker than men and therefore less useful in war. However, there are plenty of men that are weaker then many women. It's just sexism, and as a result, it really sucks for men.

No, it's not. Most women aren't physically capable of doing the infantry work. If they were more apt to do it than men, it would be the other way around. It's the same reason that gays aren't allowed in the military, especially in those positions, because sexual or other attraction between people is bad. Like if I'm dug in and trying desperately to find a way out, and there's someone next to me who pretty much as given up, the last thing I'm going to want is them to look over and be like "I love you" or something. It's not sexism, it's just the way it works to avoid issues from arising. Same thing happens in a lot of places; like at work, a lot of companies don't let you have relationships with co-workers. Except at a normal job you're not away from your home for years at a time and can go have a relationship with someone else.

 

[Siretu]

I don't know what I think of this myself. On one hand, there's the point about sexual distraction etc. On the other hand, there's the equalism side.

Women want to be able to compete in jobs that were considered men-only jobs before. Discussions go on about how women can do it as good as the men.

Now, why shouldn't the women be drafted into the military? They get a harder time since they're not suited for such things, they can't handle it etc.

If women got a harder time with physical work(generally) than men, why would an employer hire women for physically demanding jobs if they demand the same salary?

In my view, it's like the classic cake problem. Some people try to eat the cake and keep it. "Sure, we should get the same salary, we can handle this job as well as you, we girls are at least as good as you.", "No, we can't be demanded into military! We can't handle it as good as men."

I don't know the research made on the subject, but let's assume girls got a harder time with physical work. In this case, drafting them into the military is bad by two reasons(Sexual tensions and actually not managing the hard work) Employers would rightly pay them less salary(in jobs where physical work is a factor, of course)

Now, let's say they are equal when it comes to physical work. They get equal salary(or should at least get it) They get drafted into the military, but there's still the sexual tensions.

How do you solve it?

The solutions I find is:
a) Ignore it
b) Don't draft women into the military.
c) Don't draft men into the military.
d) Don't draft anyone into the military, make it voluntary.

Frankly, I don't see option c and d as alternatives.

I see option b as unfair.

I can't predict the consequences if you ignore the sexual and emotional distraction, so I can't really say what will happen if that would be the case.


This is why I don't like feminism. I'm all for equal rights, but not just for women, it should go both ways(although men got more advantages right now, no question about it)

Equalism is what I like. My personal opinion on the issue is that I don't really know a good solution. It all depends on how big the difference in getting muscular mass really is.

If it were up to me, I'd most likely keep it as it is. It's hard to explain, but drafting women into the military would just make it less serious, it would be almost like confirming your belief in God. I was in a camp to confirm myself. Rest were just there because it was a fun thing.

It just don't think it would work.

 

[Varine]

If women got a harder time with physical work(generally) than men, why would an employer hire women for physically demanding jobs if they demand the same salary?

I don't think they do very much.

although men got more advantages right now, no question about it

I don't think I get time off work if a kid came along.

 

[nabbig2]

No, it's not. Most women aren't physically capable of doing the infantry work. If they were more apt to do it than men, it would be the other way around. It's the same reason that gays aren't allowed in the military, especially in those positions, because sexual or other attraction between people is bad. Like if I'm dug in and trying desperately to find a way out, and there's someone next to me who pretty much as given up, the last thing I'm going to want is them to look over and be like "I love you" or something. It's not sexism, it's just the way it works to avoid issues from arising. Same thing happens in a lot of places; like at work, a lot of companies don't let you have relationships with co-workers. Except at a normal job you're not away from your home for years at a time and can go have a relationship with someone else.

Most women are physically capable of doing infantry work. It's just that some of them may have to work harder at it.
If a woman can meet the physical and mental standards necessary to successfully participate in a certain role, then there is no good reason for her to be disallowed from this role.

Women have fought for plenty of other countries successfully. Are the women of the US weaker or something, that they can't fight? Seriously, with proper training, a women can very well fight in the army.

The draft should be based off of abilities, not gender.

 

[Samael88]

The draft should be based off of abilities, not gender.

You are aware of that gay people are on the same page as women here, right?

It has nothing to do with what they can do. That was not even my top argument.
The thing is that if you are in the army for say 2 years and there are no women, then you sure as hell is going to be horny when you get home!
If you did the same thing but there where women everywhere, then chances are that you would be even more horny.
And not to mention what would happen if someone fell in love, it could compromise mission, it could compromise an entire battle.
Would you like your general to say "Bah, I can make the plans tomorrow, come here woman.", thus never making any battleplans?
It sounds stupid, but the attraction between women and men, and gay and straight, that could do more damage than you think That is why only the women who really want to join the army are allowed, that is why women are not drafted still today.

 

[Varine]

Most women are physically capable of doing infantry work. It's just that some of them may have to work harder at it.
If a woman can meet the physical and mental standards necessary to successfully participate in a certain role, then there is no good reason for her to be disallowed from this role.

I already explained that. And go give your girlfriend (if you have one) a hundred pound pack and tell her to walk. See how far she gets.

Women have fought for plenty of other countries successfully. Are the women of the US weaker or something, that they can't fight? Seriously, with proper training, a women can very well fight in the army.

I already explained why they aren't allowed. And they do fight, just not in an MOS specifically for fighting where the mentality of the soldiers can't stray. If you're walking through a possible combat zone, haven't been with a girl for a year, and happen to have one in your squad, are you telling me there is no way that you would start dazing off from the fact that someone might pop up and shoot you? It would become a hazard because someone wouldn't be paying attention until after we're under attack.

You are aware of that gay people are on the same page as women here, right?

Not with Obama's new order or whatever he's trying to get done. And I explained that too.

The thing is that if you are in the army for say 2 years and there are no women, then you sure as hell is going to be horny when you get home!

You're rarely deployed for two years. It's usually 12 to 15 months, most people are on 14 month tours. You don't think about it much because there aren't women around working and sleeping in your barracks. Besides there's always prostitutes.

Would you like your general to say "Bah, I can make the plans tomorrow, come here woman.", thus never making any battleplans?

Well usually the plans come from higher up, officers or someone, who tell us what to do. Everything else is kind of done on the fly. Like in my unit, I didn't know what was going to happen so I couldn't tell them exactly what to do until I was there.

 

[ReVolver]

Why serve the nation when they can make us sandwiches? The battle field of a woman is the kitchen fire and the dishes.

Sexism ftw...

On-Topic

Women are too weak "proven" compared to men I guess its the genes and the way they are built. Nature tends to make the male stronger than the male in most cases (Alpha Male)

 

[nabbig2]

I already explained that. And go give your girlfriend (if you have one) a hundred pound pack and tell her to walk. See how far she gets.

Do the exact same with your average layman. Se how far he gets.

I already explained why they aren't allowed. And they do fight, just not in an MOS specifically for fighting where the mentality of the soldiers can't stray. If you're walking through a possible combat zone, haven't been with a girl for a year, and happen to have one in your squad, are you telling me there is no way that you would start dazing off from the fact that someone might pop up and shoot you? It would become a hazard because someone wouldn't be paying attention until after we're under attack.

I'm glad you managed bring up a decent point here. However, squads could be separated on the basis of gender as a feasible solution. Also note that actual warfare is extremely tense. Anybody who is dazing off in that situation in the first place deserves to be taken off the armed forces.


Again, what happens with your ideology is that woman are protected from so many instances of violence, and instead only the men are slaughtered. Doesn't sound fair to me when there are plenty of women that are perfectly capable of fighting in combat.

 

[Varine]

Do the exact same with your average layman. Se how far he gets.

A lot further.

I'm glad you managed bring up a decent point here. However, squads could be separated on the basis of gender as a feasible solution. Also note that actual warfare is extremely tense. Anybody who is dazing off in that situation in the first place deserves to be taken off the armed forces.

You go try walking for hours in a line without seeing anything of much excitement and see if your mind wanders.

Also, what happens if the woman is having sex with another soldier and gets pregnant?

 

[nabbig2]

A lot further.

Again, just because women aren't as physically capable as men doesn't mean they can't participate in combat. The draft discriminates by gender, not by ability. There are plenty of women that are stronger than many men, and not drafting/accepting these women is blatant sexism. If that is your ideal drafting system, so be it.

You go try walking for hours in a line without seeing anything of much excitement and see if your mind wanders.

Also, what happens if the woman is having sex with another soldier and gets pregnant?

The same thing that happens to other incompetent and disobedient soldiers-they are punished. People with such a mentality and a lack of responsibility shouldn't be given responsibilities in combat, where so many things could potentially go awry.

 

[Varine]

Again, just because women aren't as physically capable as men doesn't mean they can't participate in combat. The draft discriminates by gender, not by ability. There are plenty of women that are stronger than many men, and not drafting/accepting these women is blatant sexism. If that is your ideal drafting system, so be it.

How many fucking times do you want me to go over the other reasons?

The same thing that happens to other incompetent and disobedient soldiers-they are punished. People with such a mentality and a lack of responsibility shouldn't be given responsibilities in combat, where so many things could potentially go awry.

Dude I am done arguing with you. I doubt you have any clue what it's like to be in combat and yet you're trying to tell me about responsibilities because you happen to have sex. That doesn't make you an incompetent soldier; disobedient, yes, but to a minor degree, and honestly I probably wouldn't even report it because it isn't anything to make a huge deal over, but amazingly, I wouldn't be happy having a woman get pregnant in my squad. I really wouldn't want one in my squad at all, for the reasons I already stated and you blatantly ignored.

 

[InfectedWithDrew]

It is a double standard to have men register for the Selective service and yet to let women into the military voluntarily.

That is all.

 

[Varine]

It is a double standard to have men register for the Selective service and yet to let women into the military voluntarily.

That is all.

We're all aware of that. And people for some reason are refusing to understand why.

 

[nabbig2]

How many fucking times do you want me to go over the other reasons?



Dude I am done arguing with you. I doubt you have any clue what it's like to be in combat and yet you're trying to tell me about responsibilities because you happen to have sex. That doesn't make you an incompetent soldier; disobedient, yes, but to a minor degree, and honestly I probably wouldn't even report it because it isn't anything to make a huge deal over, but amazingly, I wouldn't be happy having a woman get pregnant in my squad. I really wouldn't want one in my squad at all, for the reasons I already stated and you blatantly ignored.

If you believe it is competent to have sex while enlisted in combat, knowing the full consequences including pregnancy, then you are obviously the one who has no clue what combat is like, and how the military runs.

because it isn't anything to make a huge deal over

Again, if you really believe getting pregnant isn't a huge deal, I don't know what to say.

 

[Varine]

If youbelieve it is competent to have sex while enlisted in combat, knowing the full consequences including pregnancy, then you are obviously the one who has no clue what combat is like, and how the military runs.

Talking to a guy who's gone on two tours...

Again, if you really believe getting pregnant isn't a huge deal, I don't know what to say.

And led a squad.

You have no clue what you're talking about. I am well aware of the consequences that would happen, but you know what? The women they were with weren't in my squad, and probably consented to it (rape, I would have had summary execution for) knowing that they aren't going to be coming back to them. That's the difference, that women isn't going to be with us the next day, she ain't going to be in the same truck as he is, she just plain isn't going to be there to cause issues. That guy isn't going to fall in love with her, or at least as easily since she isn't going to be around all the time, and she isn't going to get put under fire and therefore he isn't going to put everything at risk in his blindness to get to her. As far as I was concerned when I led my men, the mission was the most important thing. If we had to go in and get something, we're getting it. If someone happens to get killed, we can't do anything about it, and we all were sad about it later, but there is no time for anyone to fall in love and watch that person get shot down and have a fucking breakdown. What if the guy was the heavy gunner and had the SAW or the close quarters guy, or even worse a demo guy because we can't just pick up and use demolitions we don't know how to. If that guy fell in love with a girl that got shot, or visa versa, and she got killed, do you think he's going to keep on going rationally? It would put too much at risk, and even women were allowed, I probably would do everything I could to keep them out of my squad because I don't want one to influence any of my men. That's what you don't seem to understand; you're thinking all about fairness and equality and not of what you NEED to be, and that's an apathetic son of a bitch. You can't stop and think about if the guy you just killed had a family, you can't wonder if that man you shot in the chest actually died or if he's suffering, you need to go and not stop. If someone gets wounded, you can't freak out, you have to do what you can as fast as you can and get moving again, and if they die, you leave them because there's nothing that can be done and I'm not carrying a two hundred pound body around with me. There is no room for feelings.

 

[nabbig2]

Talking to a guy who's gone on two tours...



And led a squad.

You have no clue what you're talking about. I am well aware of the consequences that would happen, but you know what? The women they were with weren't in my squad, and probably consented to it (rape, I would have had summary execution for) knowing that they aren't going to be coming back to them. That's the difference, that women isn't going to be with us the next day, she ain't going to be in the same truck as he is, she just plain isn't going to be there to cause issues. That guy isn't going to fall in love with her, or at least as easily since she isn't going to be around all the time, and she isn't going to get put under fire and therefore he isn't going to put everything at risk in his blindness to get to her. As far as I was concerned when I led my men, the mission was the most important thing. If we had to go in and get something, we're getting it. If someone happens to get killed, we can't do anything about it, and we all were sad about it later, but there is no time for anyone to fall in love and watch that person get shot down and have a fucking breakdown. What if the guy was the heavy gunner and had the SAW or the close quarters guy, or even worse a demo guy because we can't just pick up and use demolitions we don't know how to. If that guy fell in love with a girl that got shot, or visa versa, and she got killed, do you think he's going to keep on going rationally? It would put too much at risk, and even women were allowed, I probably would do everything I could to keep them out of my squad because I don't want one to influence any of my men. That's what you don't seem to understand; you're thinking all about fairness and equality and not of what you NEED to be, and that's an apathetic son of a bitch. You can't stop and think about if the guy you just killed had a family, you can't wonder if that man you shot in the chest actually died or if he's suffering, you need to go and not stop. If someone gets wounded, you can't freak out, you have to do what you can as fast as you can and get moving again, and if they die, you leave them because there's nothing that can be done and I'm not carrying a two hundred pound body around with me. There is no room for feelings.

I know about the desensitization that must occur if a person is to go and shoot people, I'm not sure why you went to ramble on about the whole emotional aspect, it's completely irrelevant.

Like I have stated before, if people want to fool around in war and have sex, they should be punished for it. Believe it or not, men and women can work together in such an environment. There are countries that draft women and have them fight, such as China, Israel, and Cuba.

I imagine it would take some time for male soldiers to get their act together and cooperate with their female counterparts in countries that haven't drafted women before, but in my opinion, this is what should happen eventually. While it may not seem feasible to you, this would be beneficial in the long run. It's possible that in some distant war in the future, all the men of a country may be insufficient.

 

[Varine]

I know about the desensitization that must occur if a person is to go and shoot people, I'm not sure why you went to ramble on about the whole emotional aspect, it's completely irrelevant.

Because it is totally relevant. There is no room for any soldier to fall in love with another one. Even if women were allowed and it was segregated, then everyone is going to bitch because the women are treated better or some fucking thing. If they let women into combat, then they are going to be stationed with with the men in combat, and that is an issue.

Like I have stated before, if people want to fool around in war and have sex, they should be punished for it. Believe it or not, men and women can work together in such an environment. There are countries that draft women and have them fight, such as China, Israel, and Cuba.

And like I said, not us for those reasons. You CANNOT fall in love with a woman and it would be a hazard in combat as far as I am concerned, and I am fairly certain I have more experience in it than you so don't fucking lecture me about what you feel it's like and what you feel will happen, because you're wrong. And Israel doesn't let women have combat arms positions. They WERE for a time, but then they realized that the men react much stronger to female casualties and it was disruptive and demoralizing. So no, the IDF does not let women in combat roles. China and Cuba... they would probably kill you if you fucked up at all.

I imagine it would take some time for male soldiers to get their act together and cooperate with their female counterparts in countries that haven't drafted women before, but in my opinion, this is what should happen eventually. While it may not seem feasible to you, this would be beneficial in the long run. It's possible that in some distant war in the future, all the men of a country may be insufficient.

And at that time I believe it would become more of fight for desperation, where you won't be concerned because you're not fighting for a country anymore, you're fighting for your own wellbeing. And at that point I seriously doubt there would be much order left in society and the structural chain of the military would have broken down.